Corante

About this Author
DBL%20Hendrix%20small.png College chemistry, 1983

Derek Lowe The 2002 Model

Dbl%20new%20portrait%20B%26W.png After 10 years of blogging. . .

Derek Lowe, an Arkansan by birth, got his BA from Hendrix College and his PhD in organic chemistry from Duke before spending time in Germany on a Humboldt Fellowship on his post-doc. He's worked for several major pharmaceutical companies since 1989 on drug discovery projects against schizophrenia, Alzheimer's, diabetes, osteoporosis and other diseases. To contact Derek email him directly: derekb.lowe@gmail.com Twitter: Dereklowe

Chemistry and Drug Data: Drugbank
Emolecules
ChemSpider
Chempedia Lab
Synthetic Pages
Organic Chemistry Portal
PubChem
Not Voodoo
DailyMed
Druglib
Clinicaltrials.gov

Chemistry and Pharma Blogs:
Org Prep Daily
The Haystack
Kilomentor
A New Merck, Reviewed
Liberal Arts Chemistry
Electron Pusher
All Things Metathesis
C&E News Blogs
Chemiotics II
Chemical Space
Noel O'Blog
In Vivo Blog
Terra Sigilatta
BBSRC/Douglas Kell
ChemBark
Realizations in Biostatistics
Chemjobber
Pharmalot
ChemSpider Blog
Pharmagossip
Med-Chemist
Organic Chem - Education & Industry
Pharma Strategy Blog
No Name No Slogan
Practical Fragments
SimBioSys
The Curious Wavefunction
Natural Product Man
Fragment Literature
Chemistry World Blog
Synthetic Nature
Chemistry Blog
Synthesizing Ideas
Business|Bytes|Genes|Molecules
Eye on FDA
Chemical Forums
Depth-First
Symyx Blog
Sceptical Chymist
Lamentations on Chemistry
Computational Organic Chemistry
Mining Drugs
Henry Rzepa


Science Blogs and News:
Bad Science
The Loom
Uncertain Principles
Fierce Biotech
Blogs for Industry
Omics! Omics!
Young Female Scientist
Notional Slurry
Nobel Intent
SciTech Daily
Science Blog
FuturePundit
Aetiology
Gene Expression (I)
Gene Expression (II)
Sciencebase
Pharyngula
Adventures in Ethics and Science
Transterrestrial Musings
Slashdot Science
Cosmic Variance
Biology News Net


Medical Blogs
DB's Medical Rants
Science-Based Medicine
GruntDoc
Respectful Insolence
Diabetes Mine


Economics and Business
Marginal Revolution
The Volokh Conspiracy
Knowledge Problem


Politics / Current Events
Virginia Postrel
Instapundit
Belmont Club
Mickey Kaus


Belles Lettres
Uncouth Reflections
Arts and Letters Daily
In the Pipeline: Don't miss Derek Lowe's excellent commentary on drug discovery and the pharma industry in general at In the Pipeline

In the Pipeline

« An Incentive For Hype | Main | What If the Journal Disappears? »

February 22, 2013

Nativis Returns

Email This Entry

Posted by Derek

Well, since it's Friday, I thought I'd quickly revisit one of the favorite companies I've written about here: Nativis. You'll recall that this is the outfit that claimed "photonic signatures" of drugs were as effective as the physical molecules themselves. My comments (and those of the readership here) led to some public exchanges with the company's chief financial officer, but last I heard of them they had moved out of San Diego and back to Seattle. Readers mentioned that the company was developing some sort of cancer-treatment device based on their ideas.

A couple of alert readers have now sent along links to the latest news. Nativis has produced a device they're calling the "Voyager", which is being tested in veterinary applications. Here is a YouTube video from a clinic that's trying it out. I have no reason to think that the doctor being interviewed is anything but sincere, but I also tend to think that he may not realize just what the opinion of many observers is about the Nativis technology. The veterinarian says things in the clip about how "the healing energy is then emitted to the tumor from this coil" and "The radiofrequency signal is stored on this device and then played, if you will, through this coil, to the tumor itself".

He does not appear to be misrepresenting Nativis' claims. I believe that this is the relevant patent application. The first claim reads:

"1. An aqueous anti-tumor composition produced by treating an aqueous medium free of paclitaxel, a paclitaxel analog, or other cancer-cell inhibitory compound with a low-frequency, time-domain signal derived from paclitaxel or an analog thereof, until the aqueous medium acquires a detectable paclitaxel activity, as evidenced by the ability of the composition (i) to inhibit growth of human glioblastoma cells when the composition is added to the cells in culture, over a 24 hour culture period, under standard culture conditions, and/or (ii), to inhibit growth of a paclitaxel-responsive tumor when administered to a subject having such a tumor."
.

So yes, we're apparently still talking about turning a sample of water into a drug by playing some sort of radio frequency into it. And no, I still have no idea how this is physically possible, and to the extent that I understand the company's explanations, I do not find them convincing. Here's some more language out of the patent application:

[0151] In one exemplary method, paclitaxel time-domain signals were obtained by recording low-frequency signals from a sample of paclitaxel suspended in CremophorEL™ 529 ml and anhydrous ethanol 69.74 mi to a final concentration of 8 mg/rrtl. The signals were recorded with injected DC offset, at noise level settings between 10 and 241 mV and in increments of 1 mV. A total of 241 time-domain signals over this injected-noise level range were obtained, and these were analyzed by an enhanced autocorrelation algorithm detailed above, yielding 8 time-domain paclitaxel-derived signals for further in vitro testing. One of these, designated signal M2{3), was selected as an exemplary paclitaxel signal effective in producing taxol-specific effects in biological response systems (described below), and when used for producing paclriaxei-specific aqueous compositions in accordance with the invention, also as described below.

[0152] Figs. 9A-9C show frequency-domain spectra of two paclitaxel signals with noise removed by Fourier subtraction (Figs. 9A and 98), and a cross-correlation of the two signals (Fig. 9C), showing agent-specific spectral features over a portion of the frequency spectrum from 3510 to 3650 Hz. As can be seen from Fig. 9C, when a noise threshold corresponding to an ordinate value of about 3 is imposed, the paclitaxel signal in this region is characterized by 7 peaks. The spectra shown in Figs. 9A-9C, but expanded to show spectral features over the entire region between 0-20kHz, illustrate how optimal time-domain signals can be selected, by examining the frequency spectrum of the signal for unique, agent-specific peaks, and selecting a time-domain signal that contains a number of such peaks.

[0153] The time-domain signals recorded, processed, and selected as above may be stored on a compact disc or any other suitable storage media for analog or digital signals and supplied to the transduction system during a signal transduction operation The signal carried on the compact disc is representative, more generally, of a tangible data storage medium having stored thereon, a low-frequency time domain signal effective to produce a magnetic field capable of transducing a chemical or biological system, or in producing an agent-specific aqueous composition in accordance with the invention, when the signal is supplied to electromagnetic transduction coil(s) at a signal current calculated to produce a magnetic field strength in the range between 1 G and 10"8 G, Although the specific signal tested was derived from a paclitaxel sample, it will be appreciated that any taxane-iike compound should generate a signal having the same mechanism of action in transduced form.

I just fail to see how recording "signals" from a drug preparation can then be used to turn water (or water/bubble mixtures, etc., as the patent goes on to claim) into something that acts like the original drug. All the objections I raised in my first post on this company are still in force as far as I'm concerned, and my suggestions for more convincing experimental data are still out there waiting to be fulfilled. Despite various mentions of publications and IND filings when I interacted with Nativis back in 2010, I am unaware of any evidence that has been divulged past their patent filings.

And no, I do not regard patent filings as sufficient evidence that anything actually works - here's one for a process of reincarnation leading to immortality, for example. Even issued patents have proven insufficient in the past: here's one for a faster-than-light radio antenna. If Nativis wants to end up in a different bin than those people, they are, in my opinion, taking an odd path to doing so.

Comments (96) + TrackBacks (0) | Category: Snake Oil


COMMENTS

1. Puff the Mutant Dragon on February 22, 2013 10:43 AM writes...

Maybe it's still too early in the morning for me (7:40 out here), but I really don't understand the motivations of the vets who are participating in this little high-class swindle. Are they just gullible? dumb? or are they profiting off this too in some way?

Permalink to Comment

2. spaceman on February 22, 2013 10:57 AM writes...

IBnotsureifserious

Permalink to Comment

3. Anonymous on February 22, 2013 11:00 AM writes...

The wavelength of 3510 Hz sound in water is 40.9 cm [(wavelength = velocity/frequency) and the velocity of sound in water is 1435 m/s].

Fundamentally, Nativis are claiming that 41 cm pressure fluctuations in a fluid (sound waves) are somehow selectively coupling with a molecule whose longest unit cell dimension is 23.8 Angstroms [Ref 1].

Obviously non-sense.
---------------------------------------
[Ref 1]: PNAS 92 (1995) 6920.

Permalink to Comment

4. Hap on February 22, 2013 11:14 AM writes...

Bunsen's comment in the Nativis-threatening-Derek-badly post (this) would be relevant here.

There would have to be unambiguous (and probably copious) data to make me believe that what they have is real, and the way they are going about their work does not enhance their credibility.

Permalink to Comment

5. DLIB on February 22, 2013 11:26 AM writes...

Not physical...water can not be recorded onto with EM radiation with the intent of replicating the action of a drug in solution. It's diamagnetic ( magnetic permeability and susceptibility less than 1). So the idea that it could hold a recorded state through a magnetic field is nonsense. RF energy won't somehow freeze the water into a the shape of the first - third hydration shells...Not physical.

Permalink to Comment

6. Wile E. Coyote, Genius on February 22, 2013 11:30 AM writes...

Unfortunately, there are occasional quacks among the veterinarians as there are the occasional quacks among the physicians. Sincerely believing this claptrap or having more nefarious motivations doesn't matter. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, quack, quack, quack...

Permalink to Comment

7. Pig Farmer on February 22, 2013 11:33 AM writes...

People actually part with real money for this?
Can I have some too please?

Permalink to Comment

8. Ben Zene on February 22, 2013 11:55 AM writes...

I believe the AZ in-licensing team are already thinking about making an acquisition. And it's just a big pharma conspiracy which is keeping the immortality one from being developed too.

Permalink to Comment

9. My 0.02 on February 22, 2013 12:09 PM writes...

@ Pig farmer,

It once again proves that there is a sucker born every minute.

Permalink to Comment

10. bboooooya on February 22, 2013 12:16 PM writes...

Did you ever hear back from the CFO after your (excellent) reply?

Permalink to Comment

11. Scull on February 22, 2013 12:34 PM writes...

Veterinary medicine seems like the perfect place for Nativis to expand.
No pesky clinical trials or pharmacists, and who wouldn't spend themselves near to bankruptcy if their precious little snookums was sick?

Permalink to Comment

12. DLIB on February 22, 2013 12:49 PM writes...

Ahhh, I hear the voice over for the video has a British accent. That changes everything - It's physical now ;-)

Permalink to Comment

13. Am I Lloyd peptide on February 22, 2013 12:56 PM writes...

You know what would give credibility to these people? Publishing a paper in Nature on water's memory. Just like Benveniste who did this and blew away the competition.

Permalink to Comment

14. Dr. Oz on February 22, 2013 1:05 PM writes...

Tune in to my show tomorrow for a new drug-free therapy the pharmaceutical companies DON'T want you to know about!

Permalink to Comment

15. Anonymous on February 22, 2013 1:47 PM writes...

One might wish to read the Written Opinion on this application from the EPO. They refused to even examine the claims because, “meaningful assessment of novelty and inventive step cannot be carried out, because the claimed invention contradicts the established laws of physics”. The Examiner even cites Albert Einstein’s Nobel Prize winning paper of 1905 on Brownian motion. He argued, “water molecules of an aqueous medium are in permanent Brownian motion. They do form clusters,” which was one of the allegations made in this POF. Well done Jorg Wilhelm.

Permalink to Comment

16. Bunsen on February 22, 2013 2:58 PM writes...

#15: It's great to see people doing their jobs right, but I can't shake the feeling that a patent examiner referring to Einstein is one of those intra-lab vanity citations.

Permalink to Comment

17. David Borhani on February 22, 2013 3:54 PM writes...

Why waste time posting on such silliness?

Permalink to Comment

18. daze39 on February 22, 2013 4:59 PM writes...

This makes some of the claims of apparent "cold fusion" look credible by comparison.

Permalink to Comment

19. Rube? on February 22, 2013 7:36 PM writes...

To answer Dr. Borhani's question: "Why waste time posting", one could argue it is to perform a public service. Nativis has raised millions of dollars despite having founders with no scientific credentials. They are all related to each other and none appears to be a college graduate, unless you count "Chiropractic University" or their "CFO" who is a small town accountant! This all appears to be based on the "Work" of a discredited french researcher. The discussion on this blog in 2010 probably caused many investors to get cold feet or reconsider further backing, so they relocated and came out with a product without a mention of their original "drug" which was coming out in 2010! What happened with that? Those studies? The pending clinical trials? Every "executive" at this "company" and all of their investors are both aware of and reading this blog. I would also imagine it is safe to assume that the family members will use the results of this "study" to raise even more money. So, if you feel this is "hogwash" and are a scientist, why not explain to those of us who are not (in plain English) why this is nonsensical. There is no need to be condescending. Investors and potential patients with no scientific background need your help. I would greatly appreciate someone explaining why this "study" is not valid. The "vet" more or less makes the exact same endorsement of every other drug he is "testing", including one that claims the Herpes Virus is a cancer cure (after a fashion). Also, is he being paid for this? There are people and dogs out there who are desperate and being introduced to this "Voyager". They are being given hope and if this is a scam, that is reprehensible. But what if it's not? Is there any chance this could work? I appreciate whatever input is provided and thank Dr. Lowe for creating this forum.

Permalink to Comment

20. Joe Loughry on February 22, 2013 8:26 PM writes...

That's some transduction coil they have in paragraph [0153]. 10 to the 8th gauss is approaching the flux density in the vicinity of a neutron star.

Permalink to Comment

21. Derek Lowe on February 22, 2013 9:07 PM writes...

#17, David B. -

It's true that if I went after every piece of craziness like this that the task would be never-ending. There really is one born every minute, and there's someone ready to take their money every thirty seconds. But once in a while I like to take something like this on.

It's really amazing, for those of us who do real research, how much people are willing to believe. Someone sees some circuit diagrams, some talk of photonics and "low-frequency spectra", and they figure, hey, sounds good to me, why not? This is what we're up against when people complain that our drugs are all toxic, that we don't discover anything anyway (it's all from the universities), and that we've suppressing cancer cures and so on. All these things sound equally plausible to many people. I think it's worth taking the occasional whack at such stuff and (at the same time) reminding all of us about how far off things can get.

Permalink to Comment

22. David Borhani on February 22, 2013 10:17 PM writes...

Thanks, Derek. I see your point, and yours as well, Rube? (#19). So, in the spirit of "public service," I'll bite!

@3, the ~3,600 Hz refers to electromagnetic radiation. In other words, low-field NMR. Given the proton's gyromagnetic ratio, the resonance frequency is 4,258 Hz at their stated highest magnetic field of 1 Gauss.

3,600 Hz corresponds to a wavelength of ~83 kilometers, i.e. "Longwave radio", which is useful for long-range communication.

One obvious issue with the Nativis device (overlooked by all us geeks?) is that radio waves of such a long wavelength require a correspondingly long antenna for efficient detection (hence the US Navy laying out hundreds of miles of cable on the sea floor to communicate with submarines). Yet, the Nativis device fits in the palm of your hand...

Another issue is that these waves are useful for low-bandwidth data transfer precisely because they are hardly absorbed by water or earth...or people...

And the last issue is that the energy packed by these longwaves is miniscule: ~2.4E-30 joules/photon, or ~3.4E-7 cal/mol. I don't see much chemistry happening at these energies.

So, have real people put money into this company, or is it some kind of tax dodge?

Permalink to Comment

23. Rube? on February 23, 2013 10:40 AM writes...

3 years ago the "company" claimed to be embarking on "clinical trials" for their "drug", which apparently was a glass of water with a "signal" played to it. The whole thing seems to be based on the "research" of Jacques (rhymes with Quack) Benveniste. They were eviscerated on blogs such as this after going public and, despite claiming trials were in the works and papers would be released in a few weeks, nothing more was heard about it. Now they have this sort of backpack which they claim beams "healing energy" into the patient. As for being a tax dodge, that will only be the case if the "company" closes. The husband and wife team who run this (despite neither being a college graduate) with the help of their accountant are telling anyone who will listen that the "company" will make billions of dollars any day now. It is a straight greed play. It is amazing they have found people to invest but they must be pretty smooth. They will most likely use the clip of this "vet" to convince more people to part with their money. The shocking part is they are telling people human trials are about to start, apparently in a third world location. If this is true and it is, in fact, fanciful nonsense, one feels for the patients who will be hoping to extend their lives. Whether this is a fraud or not remains to be seen. It could well be that the founders have deluded themselves into believing this works and are just enjoying the ride on the investor dime while the story plays out. However, this doesn't address the fact that this "vet" says it works. But does one dog being "cured" prove concept? For a layman its hard to tell if the people behind this will end up on "American Greed" or receiving a Nobel Prize.

Permalink to Comment

24. Mark on February 24, 2013 12:40 AM writes...

I understand why people are skeptical. But I don't see why people are so confident that it doesn't work. What if it works?
I know a couple of the board members. I trust them. They are getting confirmations that the product works.
First it worked on rodents. Now, it has worked for over 40 dogs.
What do these people want to see?
I suppose if a million people were cured by this product, they would still be giving us technical jargon as to why the whole thing is a fraud.
Did it occur to any critics that they may not have their facts straight?

Permalink to Comment

25. Mark on February 24, 2013 2:15 AM writes...

p.s.
Here is some info on Dr. Ogilvie from his website:
http://www.cvsangelcare.com/staff/Gregory-Ogilvie-DVM-DACVIM-IM-Onc-DECVIM-CA-Onc/
Do you guys think Ogilvie is a fraud, not really a vet at all? Do you think he has been paid off to defraud the world that a false product works?
Do you think he knows nothing about statistics or cancer?
As I mentioned, I heard that over 40 dogs have shown remarkable and rapid improvement from the treatment. If he is for real, he surely knows the difference between a random healing and strong statistical evidence that a product works.
It seems to me here that this has turned into something like the scientists who used to say that it is impossible for bumble bees to fly. They did their homework and proved conclusively that bumble bees cannot fly.

Permalink to Comment

26. leftscienceawhileago on February 24, 2013 2:49 AM writes...

Mark,
Not only does the reasoning presented by Natvis in this presentation (and its previous ones) seem to make *any* sense to people knowledge about this sort of thing, their interactions with this blog have clearly demonstrated that they are not proposing sound ideas.

I don't think any honest, (generally) consistent common sense reasoning person can believe your statement "worked for 40 dogs"...what is it that worked?

Permalink to Comment

27. will on February 24, 2013 8:34 AM writes...

@25 - product soon to be approved for prevention and cure of large organ dessication.

Permalink to Comment

28. Rube? on February 24, 2013 10:50 AM writes...

"Soon to be approved for prevention". Imagine, the "healing energy" will cure the cancer before it even arrives! Sounds Compelling And Marvelous. "Mark", I assume you are a Nativis investor (if so, great choice in "handle"). The bottom line is for this to go from "curing" a few rodents and dogs to being approved by the FDA (if it does, in fact, work) will take years and hundreds of millions of dollars (at least). 3 years ago the same claims were being made about the "Digitax" magic water curing brain cancer in humans "breaking the blood brain barrier". Trials were about to start and papers were going to be released any day! Billions and billions were going to be paid in licensing fees momentarily. Perhaps "Mark" is a new investor and doesn't remember this. Certainly the "company" doesn't seem to, it was never mentioned again! Of course that could be because none of the founders have any scientific credentials or education and have never taken a college physics course, let alone had a drug approved by the FDA! Before his foray into pharma, the CEO was a realtor, his wife the COO in retail! They do have a very well respected patent attorney and a clever accountant. The good news for "Mark" and others is, if this does work, every Pharma company and VC will be lining up to get a piece of this, if the current investors just put up a little more cash, it should happen shortly.....

Permalink to Comment

29. phlogiston on February 24, 2013 5:17 PM writes...

I think "Rube" raises a good point about investing in something when you don't have the technical knowledge to evaluate the claims presented. I would just say that a good investor only puts money into what they know (like Buffet), or consults experts with no vested interest. This is a very good blog with plenty of unbiased experts. I would simply advise anyone interested in this company to listen to experts (one vet doesn't count compared to thousands of scientists and the laws of physics).

I think Nativis and its investors are a symptom of societies general dismissal and lack of trust in experts. People always seem drawn to promises of the fantastic and conspiracy theories to cover it up. It might just be human nature coupled with a serious lack of scientific understanding. I think Derek and other commentators have done a good job in previous posts explaining how Nativis' claims violate the laws of thermodynamics and chemistry, so I won't pile on more, except to say that if true, everything we know about science would have to be re-written, hence the severe skepticism by comments on this blog.

Permalink to Comment

30. razors on February 24, 2013 9:14 PM writes...

Interesting debate? Hard to say. I noticed a new link on their site, to what appears is "their" presentation at the ACS national conference. A former "deep throat" scientist revealed they're partnered with UCSD, University of Washington, Tristan Technologies in San Diego and Omnica in Irvine and the world organization "Special Care Foundation for Companion Animals", the SCFCA site says they are one of four science partners, one of the other four is Merial (Sanofi). Looking at their patents, they appear to have many, I don't think the one mentioned here regarding water is the pertinent one, here. It appears that there are a lot of scientists involved, besides a lot of vets. My source revealed this is MUCH larger than a small biotech company. Who knows!

Permalink to Comment

31. leftscienceawhileago on February 24, 2013 10:24 PM writes...

Out come the Natvis shills (just like last time!), and make it ultimately clear that they aren't interested in common sense reason and abundantly clear that they are trying to pull a quick one.

25. No sane human (which includes all scientists) who understood the english language said that "bumblebees can't fly" in the simple common interpretation of the phrase. Scientists learned a lot by trying to understand how they do fly, it turns out that there was a lot of very interesting things to learn.

27. Perhaps I just don't understand the meaning of the word 'desiccation' in the context of cancer in dogs, which usually means "to dry" (remove water). Are you suggesting that Nativis can cure the drying of lage organs in the body?

30. I sincerely doubt any of that "deep throat" knowledge is at all accurate. Could you provide us with some links to some press releases?

Permalink to Comment

32. leftscienceawhileago on February 25, 2013 12:25 AM writes...

This is extremely concerning, the ACS presentation site does indeed host a presentation from Nativis:

http://presentations.acs.org/phone/video-player.aspx/spring2012/schb/SCHB005/40-02-0007

The video makes no claims on cancer (AFAICT from a cursory viewing), but makes claims about their instrumentation along with analogies to the Hubble Space Telescope:

"we have developed a device...[used for looking at the] electromagnetic environment surrounding a solvated chemistry in solution particularly a dipole solution"

The url association alone detracts from the credibility of the ACS...someone please scream at them and make them aware of the fact that they are hosting and (effectively) endorsing very questionable content on their site.

Permalink to Comment

33. Jonadab on February 25, 2013 7:01 AM writes...

I don't see how it could work, but the history of science is full of weird surprises. If the company genuinely believes in their work, let them do some double-blind animal studies. I suspect I know what the results will be, but hey, it doesn't really matter what I suspect, if I'm not being asked to fund the study. If they *do* get statistically significant results in animal trials, I'm sure they'll be able to find volunteers for human clinical trials, and it can go from there. Even if they trial doesn't get the results they were hoping for, the mere fact of conducting it would show them to be genuine. Science wouldn't develop very quickly if nobody ever tried anything unusual. So yeah, I don't think it'll work, but hey, try it and see.

Now, if they're unwilling to do actual studies but start trying to sell the technique as if it were already verified, then that would be different. In that case we could regard them as shysters.

Permalink to Comment

34. emjeff on February 25, 2013 9:20 AM writes...

#19, there are many scientists who would be more than happy to help. However, apart from the fact that this scientific help is probably expected to be provided gratis, what expectation do we have that you will listen?

Permalink to Comment

35. razors on February 25, 2013 10:21 AM writes...

#31 Well, some basic searches confirm some of "Deep Throat's" info, some, and found some more: Special Care Foundation.org (under science partners). It would appear their dog studies are spread over three hospitals and appears there are a lot of vets involved. UCSD Moores Cancer Center shows them as a partner on their newsletter. Their science board has some big names on it, PhD's and MD's. Their ACS presentation isn't easy to understand, but I'm not a physicist. It appeared that they're explaining how they acquire the radio frequency energy. I'm going to spend some time at the USPTO site reading their patents, there are many, too many for this one reader to review. IF, I say IF, these guys are right, it changes everything.

Permalink to Comment

36. will on February 25, 2013 10:25 AM writes...

sorry i guess i was unsuccessfully trying to be funny - i meant that their product, water, could be useful for hydrating dried out things...

Permalink to Comment

37. leftscienceawhileago on February 25, 2013 11:00 AM writes...

Their ACS presentation is clearly quackery 35.

Permalink to Comment

38. Rube? on February 25, 2013 11:07 AM writes...

#35: I don't think you need to be a physicist to understand the presentation. The author and presenter, "Mike Butters" is not a physicist either, he has no scientific credentials or degree. He is the latest member of this amazing family (and their accountant) who are "revolutionizing medicine" to appear on the scene.

Scientific "advisors" aside, here is a brief summary of the team who founded this venture and are named on most of the patents, as well as their "credentials". Forgive me if this is incomplete, I have no "deep throat" source.

CEO: John Butters. Apparently a former realtor who never attended college and has no scientific credentials or degrees of any kind (perhaps an honorary PHD will be bestowed by one of the institutions they are "working with").

COO: Lisa Butters. Former retail sales person at Nordstrom. Wife of John. No college degree of any kind, no scientific credentials.

CFO: John Kingma. CPA from "Oak Harbor" Washington. No scientific credentials, degree or background of any kind.

"VP of Signal Tecnhology". Mike Butters (apparently related to the others but not sure how). Trained as a paramedic. No scientific credentials or degrees of any kind but the closest any one of the "founders" comes to science or medicine. It could be that he is the one who met the person who is apparently the real brainchild for these concepts (perhaps at a Naturopathic convention):

Jacques (rhymes with Quack) Bevenieste. Simply Google the name to learn all about him! Quite a story.

These are the people who founded this "company" and created all of the "IP". That is right, they are the named inventors of virtually all of the "core" patents!

Truly a remarkable (apparently self taught) family (and their accountant). Changing science forever...

Permalink to Comment

39. razors on February 25, 2013 11:21 AM writes...

No one here has mentioned this, so I guess I will, although it's obviously on their website, their patents have been cited by Microsoft, Sumitomo, U.S. Secretary of Commerce, UC Oakland, UC Las Alamos, Tektronix, institutes in Japan, etc... I also noted on their site that their citations have very high rankings. Not an easy feat. I don't know kids, obviously these organizations have studied the Nativis patents.

Permalink to Comment

40. lt on February 25, 2013 11:27 AM writes...

If their technology works wouldn't it be the easiest thing in the world to show that is does so by, for example, getting some red cabbage juice and playing the "photonic signature" of some acid or base to it. Just a sealed glass vial inside their magical coil that changes color at the push of a button... Or if they claim that recreating the photonic signature of citric acid, for example, is beyond their technology - then they can do the experiment with an indicator solution of their choice.

Permalink to Comment

41. razors on February 25, 2013 11:45 AM writes...

Yes Rube, you're right, we all know this stuff, you're just regurgatating. At this point I'm more interested in WHAT they're doing. Seriously, time would be better spent reading their patents and understanding why their patents are being cited, and why the SCFCA, UW, UCSD and others are partnered with them. I don't believe for a minute that they've duped all of these scientists, and the ACS, it just isn't plausible to think that.

Permalink to Comment

42. leftscienceawhileago on February 25, 2013 12:09 PM writes...

39 patents or patent citations are not indicators of legitimacy, There are many ridiculous patent claims, as has been pointed out on this blog.

Permalink to Comment

43. Mark on February 25, 2013 1:03 PM writes...

Yes, we did invest in Nativis years ago. Before that, I had seen a number of people ripped off by investment scams, so I was pretty skeptical of these kinds of private fundraisers. I don’t know the Butters, but I know John Kingma. Not only is John brilliant (don’t let the “small town accountant” label fool you), but, more importantly, I would trust him with my life. I was not investing on theory, but on John’s observation that the product actually works. Regarding another board member who was added later, I would also trust him with my life.
You haven’t spent your life with these people, so I don’t expect you to have the same level of faith in them.
42. yes, patents do not prove anything works, that is not the purpose of a patent. But regarding proof and evidence, besides seeing something yourself, the best form of evidence is credible eye witnesses.

Permalink to Comment

44. Mark on February 25, 2013 1:14 PM writes...

p.s.
It is nice now that I don't have to rely just on faith in friends anymore.
Dr. Ogilvie is very credible, in my opinion. He is far more credible than an unknown group of anonymous skeptics (no disrespect intended).

Permalink to Comment

45. Bunsen on February 25, 2013 1:15 PM writes...

No, Mark, the best form of evidence is data gathered through sound experimental technique by impartial observers, backed by well tested theory.

Credible eye witnesses will tell you that Vegas has any number of people capable of slicing live, conscious humans in half and putting them back together. An elementary understanding of anatomy tells us otherwise.

The principal difference there is that the magicians aren't selling their shows as medicine, nor are they attempting to defraud investors into letting their money play the starring role in a disappearing act.

Permalink to Comment

46. PPedroso on February 25, 2013 1:30 PM writes...

I think that Derek has made the best and most clear point of all. Please, show us (or the reg authorities) credible data that this indeed works.
Posting a video of a Vet, despiste his credibility, is not enough. If you are indeed on to something, please conduct a Phase 2 randomized double-blind study in cancer patients. (you may ask FDA to waive the first time in man studies since I think that there will be no safety issues with your technology)...

Permalink to Comment

47. razors on February 25, 2013 1:46 PM writes...

Mark and Bunsen are correct, patents don't provide proof; but patent citations by respected companies and institutions provide credibility, like those listed on their site. Obviously, these companies and institutions have read and studied the subject patents and have used the background and claims to support their own new patents and claims. And, I will say again, I was surprised by the high rankings. Not many achieve that, in all fairness.

Permalink to Comment

48. leftscienceawhileago on February 25, 2013 1:57 PM writes...

47 you ate wrong. The pupose of patents has very little to do with credibility. Citations are generally overly broad as to maximize patent applicability, the citations lend no credibility to Nativis....

The fact that they have none is plainly visible to anyone with critical thinking skills.

Permalink to Comment

49. razors on February 25, 2013 2:02 PM writes...

LOL! None of us are beyond reproach, even Derek Lowe.

NATURE CHEMISTRY | THE SCEPTICAL CHYMIST

Reactions – Derek Lowe

18 May 2007 | 04:05 GMT | Posted by Stuart Cantrill |

"Derek Lowe is a research chemist in the pharmaceutical industry. Despite nearly twenty years of trying, he has yet to put anything on the market, so if you’re looking for a reason for high drug costs, look no further."

To funny, a little less time blogging and a little more time at the bench, might be in order. The craziness doesn't stop.

Speaking of the bench...................

Permalink to Comment

50. Mark on February 25, 2013 2:06 PM writes...

Bunsen 45,
So, you are suggesting that Dr. Ogilvie is watching a magic show? Who is the magician?
It is just Ogilvie and his team of veterinarians watching dogs get healed. I didn't notice any magician in the picture.

Permalink to Comment

51. razors on February 25, 2013 2:08 PM writes...

leftscienceawhileago; probably wasn't a bad idea

Permalink to Comment

52. Anonymous on February 25, 2013 2:11 PM writes...

What I mean is that the ACS team has been testing the product on dogs for many months, while the Nativis people are over 1,000 miles away. The magic show analogy doesn't fit, at all.

Permalink to Comment

53. razors on February 25, 2013 2:14 PM writes...

I just read (which I strongly recommend, it's fun) that Dr. Ogilvie is a Professor at UCSD and is head of the Veterinary Oncology Department.

Permalink to Comment

54. Anonymous academic on February 25, 2013 3:30 PM writes...

@46: "you may ask FDA to waive the first time in man studies since I think that there will be no safety issues with your technology"

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but (assuming for the sake of argument that Nativis really has made