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DBL%20Hendrix%20small.png College chemistry, 1983

Derek Lowe The 2002 Model

Dbl%20new%20portrait%20B%26W.png After 10 years of blogging. . .

Derek Lowe, an Arkansan by birth, got his BA from Hendrix College and his PhD in organic chemistry from Duke before spending time in Germany on a Humboldt Fellowship on his post-doc. He's worked for several major pharmaceutical companies since 1989 on drug discovery projects against schizophrenia, Alzheimer's, diabetes, osteoporosis and other diseases. To contact Derek email him directly: derekb.lowe@gmail.com Twitter: Dereklowe

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In the Pipeline

« Chinese Pharma Espionage? | Main | Deals of the Year in Biopharma (Bonus: Names That Can't Happen) »

December 15, 2011

More on Chinese Pharma Espionage

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Posted by Derek

Well, a lot of comments have come in about the last post on Chinese industrial espionage - some temperate, some not. I wanted to fill out another post responding to some of these, so, in no particular order:

1. "Everyone does this all the time". Indeed. Espionage is a constant fact of international relations; the "gentlemen do not read each other's mail" comment was wildly out of sync with reality even in its own time. I don't mean to suggest that I'm shocked by the fact of Chinese intelligence-gathering, although its scope and thoroughness is impressive. But I think that everyone should be aware that it goes on - and that pointing out that it's going on is also a move in the same game. We're not hearing so much about this from the US government now for no reason; someone thinks that there's an advantage in making these accusations public in such detail.

2. "More to the point, the US does this too, and thus has no room to talk". This is merely a tu quoque argument, and as such doesn't address any underlying issues. Of course the US engages in espionage, and I hope that we're good at it. But for the most part, we're doing it for a different purpose than some of the Chinese activity that's been revealed. I tend to think that more of ours is national-security related, and less pure economics - more "How can we figure out what these guys are up to?" and less "How can we jump-start our aerospace industry?"

Now, one big reason for that is that the US is not as far behind anyone else in the world as China feels itself to be behind in some key industries. They have more to gain. I'm sure that China does plenty of national-security spying, but for a country whose economy is as export-driven as China's, economic reasons and national security reasons are even more tangled together than usual. And yes, other countries have done just this sort of thing in the past. See the story of how the British got rubber-tree seeds to plant in Malaysia. Or earlier, how they learned the details of tea production and got that going in India, and that's not even mentioning their strategy of smoothing out the trade imbalance with opium sales. We shouldn't allow ourselves, though, to think that this stuff is just for the history books.

3. "OK then, what's more, the US did just this kind of economic/industrial snooping back when it was an up-and-coming nation".. This is another tu quoque, but the facts are as stated. In the 19th century, the US was generally a backwater compared to the European powers, and we did indeed have a reputation as the Kings of Shoddy Unauthorized Knockoffs (even of our own inventions). Charles Dickens was enraged when he visited to find how many pirated versions of his works were for sale, and this tradition took a long time to die out. (See, for example, the saga of how Donald Wollheim unilaterally decided in the 1960s that Tolkein's publishers had not properly secured the US copyright for The Lord of the Rings).

But while we were at our peak as intellectual property buccaneers, we were not simultaneously considered both a world power and a huge financial market. China is not to the rest of the world as the US of the 1850s was. Our big exports were agricultural products; we did not have huge factories on which many of the world's largest corporations were depending. China, in catch-up mode though it may be, is not a technological backwater. It has nuclear weapons and a manned space program - mind you, both of those were developed partly through just the sort of short-cutting we're talking about.

4. OK, that means that every Chinese post-doc is a spy. Or a potential spy, right? Here's where I flip over to the other side. Now, there surely has been intelligence gathering by such routes. But it appears that a lot of work is being done from back home, by large groups associated with the People's Liberation Army and various Chinese intelligence agencies. And when you consider what a lot of postdocs end up working on, you can see that most of it isn't going to confer much of an advantage on anyone - what are they going to do, steal K. C. Nicolau's strategy for an 89-step synthesis? I think it would be a lot more useful for US institutions to spend their time hardening their security against wholesale data-scooping than giving their foreign postdocs the fish-eye. Most of them are just trying to make better lives for themselves.

So where does this leave us? I think that China's position is unique. They're an enormous country of huge economic and political importance. And their economy is a mixture that might be called "authoritarian capitalist", no matter what they call it themselves. So for a country like the US, they're simultaneously a vital trading partner, and a potential political adversary and rival. (And the US is the same thing to China, naturally). It's a tricky balance, and there are a lot of conflicts of interest.

We're seeing one in the drug industry. No major company can afford to ignore the Chinese market. The financial advantages of pharma outsourcing have been hard to ignore, too (leaving aside the question of its effectiveness, which varies). But no company can afford to ignore the possibility that Chinese industry (or the Chinese government itself) might rip them off. These things exist simultaneously, and it's very much worth the effort keeping both of them in mind.

Comments (57) + TrackBacks (0) | Category: Business and Markets | Current Events | The Dark Side


COMMENTS

1. Saamaanyan on December 16, 2011 9:52 AM writes...

Clean and simple - Whatever the justification, espionage is espionage. Whether you do it for protecting your rights and integrity or you do it for economic advantage - you lose moral high ground to complain and criticize.

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2. PNeilson on December 16, 2011 9:59 AM writes...

Expect Chinese espionage in all fields forever. It is the favored strategy in Sun Tzu's The Art of War. As Sun Tzu himself would say, know your enemy!

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3. Herman Cain The Chemist on December 16, 2011 10:09 AM writes...

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. This proves that we are still most advanced country in the world. The strongest kid gets sucker-punched by a new kid on the block from time to time.
Instead of whining, the strongest kid should fight back like a gentleman - fair and square. Whining only confirms that we are getting fat, lazy, and sloppy. Stop whining and go build a better mouse-trap. For those sore losers, call 1-999-free-diapers for home delivery of your custom-made adult diapers (proudly made in China for Big Evil Corp of America, Inc.). This is Herman Cain and I approve this message.

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4. johnnyboy on December 16, 2011 10:36 AM writes...

Derek, I just don't get your point on this one. You seem to be saying: yes the US did a lot of espionage when it was more of a backwater, which was sort of OK, but China is different because it is an economic powerhouse, so their espionage is a concern - and also, the US is certainly doing its own espionage and it's fully justified and you encourage it.

I mean, be clear with yourself: either espionage is wrong, or it's fine. If it's wrong, it's wrong for both sides, so should be universally condemned (ie. not just condemned when it's the other side doing it). If it's fine, it's fine for both sides, so people in the US should stop whining about the chinese doing it.

Or is your main concern that China better at it than the US ?

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5. rcyran on December 16, 2011 10:55 AM writes...

Interesting side point - following both world wars, the United States confiscated huge numbers of patents from German companies in the chemical and drug industries. These were claimed as reparations (fair enough). But much of the gains were privatized by US companies.

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6. Curious Wavefunction on December 16, 2011 11:15 AM writes...

I am not sure I understand the argument in your third point. Does it mean to say that it's ok to snoop if you are an intellectual backwater but not ok when you are an economic powerhouse? Not defending Chinese espionage by any means but just making sure I understand.

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7. Chris on December 16, 2011 11:22 AM writes...

See, a scientist is a scientist, even a well respected one. When they talk about diplomatic strategies, it's like asking a bunch of MBAs to make decisions on our R&D programs.

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8. pc on December 16, 2011 11:32 AM writes...

#4 and #6,

The way I see it on this board, a lot of folks (someone called them L on their forehead) just behave like hypocrite in terms of what American can do and others (including Chinese of course) can not. I do not mean Derek though. He is pretty objective on this issue IMO. Though I have not met him personally, I respect him very much, judged by his thoughts and philosophy displayed on this blog (I must have followed it for 7 or 8 years since its early days).

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9. David Borhani on December 16, 2011 11:42 AM writes...

@ #2 "Know your enemy!" indeed seems to apply to the extensive Chinese *industrial* espionage.

But, this raises the much more troubling question (which I think is partly why Derek is highlighting the story):

Do Chinese companies treat their customers as enemies?

If the answer is largely "Yes", then I think that *does* represent a significant difference from most Western companies (which tend to treat their customers as customers). In that sense I don't think that Derek is living in a glass house while throwing stones.

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10. GC on December 16, 2011 11:56 AM writes...

I opened a couple ports on my firewall for SSH and other things, so I started watching the logs, and noticing a ton of people not only portscanning, but actively attempting logins.

I geolocated all the IPs for 3 months of activity, and over 500 of the IPs were in China, 120 were in Russia, and maybe 40 from the rest of the world.

So apparently China's attitude is "F--- you, we're trying ALL the locks"

I would say in their defense, that **every** country goes through the cheap labor/cheap knockoffs/no intellectual property phase as it grows up. England did it, the US did it, Japan did it, Korea did it, and now China is doing it. I see signs of them growing out of it and licensing IP and starting to criminalize IP theft.

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11. Anonymous on December 16, 2011 12:07 PM writes...

"Of course the US engages in espionage, and I hope that we're good at it. But for the most part, we're doing it for a different purpose than some of the Chinese activity that's been revealed. I tend to think that more of ours is national-security related, and less pure economics -"

Derek, I like this blog very much and read it almost every day because it's a very informative source. But this time, it seems to me that you have a double-standard and you are a little bit arrogant. I used to believe only US government has this kind of mentality, but not a smart and knowledgeable US scientist like you.

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12. hair on December 16, 2011 12:12 PM writes...

You basically restated my arguments from the previous post and added "but we Americans espionage for national-security reasons". What?

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13. KissTheChemist on December 16, 2011 12:44 PM writes...

@Johnnyboy and Saamaanyan This is a complex point not divisible into simple right and wrong so there is no moral high ground here to claim. Surely though, knowing what those without scruples are up to even by shady electronic means is worth the moral dilemma it provokes. Knowledge is power, but its what you do with it that counts.

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14. pete on December 16, 2011 1:09 PM writes...

I find it interesting that where both Russia and China are reportedly very active in cyber espionage against the US -- China's snooping seems to instill so much more angst. Rightfully so I think, and it's an interesting commentary on our comparative perception of their national psyches - somehow Putin's Russia seems more likely to shoot itself in the foot.

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15. Demon Pit on December 16, 2011 1:14 PM writes...

Espionage is a fact of life. What we must do is be vigilant and guard against it, like protecting ones' computer from a virus. Whatever its morality, it exists.

There are spies everywhere. Even our own allies spy on us. That is why we have spy agencies.
In the perfect world, scientists wouldn't do such things. Last time I looked, the world wasn't so perfect.

Try googling Klaus Fuchs, Morris Cohen, David Greenglass, Morton Sobell or Theodore Hall. Their kind of espionage was a helluva lot worse than stealing drug secrets.

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16. pipetodevnull on December 16, 2011 1:58 PM writes...

Great chemistry blog. However, some interesting bias occasionally--as #4 and #6 have pointed out. As a former historian, I find the historical examples curious. The largest industrial espionage penalty ever paid out was by Volkswagen, and some of the cold war stories of the Stasi and Soviets are really amazing. But whatever, the chemistry is great.
On a somewhat related note, is has been jaw-dropping at times for me (as an IT person) to see big pharma's idea of digital hygiene--very little "espionage" would be needed to surveil their doings.

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17. Student on December 16, 2011 3:29 PM writes...

To those who are pro-China spying here, you need to take note the difference between now and then is globalization. We are buying and selling physical and intellectual property as well as human capital. It is not as though the Chinese can not stand on their own two feet. We are not talking about Uganda trying to jump start a biotech sector, we are talking about an established nation, that is already playing dirty mind you (taxing their imports, requiring Chinese investors in all Chinese businesses, manipulating currency, etc.) out right stealing.

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18. newnickname on December 16, 2011 3:32 PM writes...

No time to check sources but I think that China invented "modern" paper making and kept it a closely guarded trade secret. Following some war or battle, the secret was extracted from prisoners using torture.

Something similar might also apply to the then trade secrets of making silk.

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19. hair on December 16, 2011 4:16 PM writes...

@student Noboday here is supporting espionage. I for one am just sick of how the US blames everything onto China. Grow some ballz already! Your country, not China, raped the global economy, but where is the apology?

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20. Rakoff on December 16, 2011 5:25 PM writes...

China wants to have its cake and eat it too. China is responsible for close to 50 billion a year in IP theft from the USA.

www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/23/us-china-geithner-idUSTRE78M15G20110923

China also requires that US companies setting up shop there have a Chinese partner (no doubt this facilitates their stealing of intellectual property). Derek doesn’t seem to understand the extent to which China is nothing more than a large duplication scheme. After the knowledge transfer is complete, the cloned China factory or technology then begins to eat away at the bottom line of the parent company.

No sane individual who valued their money would permit such a state of affairs. It only works because US businesses are dysfunctional, and insane. CEOs and MBAs create short term bumps in the stock price and thus their compensation by destroying their US factories and R&D facilities.
Fifty years ago most of corporate America would be view as traitorous.

China should be viewed in a fashion similar to that of the old Soviet Union or perhaps even as harshly as the NAZIS. I’m not sure why this blog is adopting an ‘everyone does it’ attitude.

The American people are paying a high price for their relationship with China. America is being dragged down into third world status.

theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/50-economic-numbers-from-2011-that-are-almost-too-crazy-to-believe/comment-page-1#comment-91369

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21. Anonymous on December 16, 2011 6:50 PM writes...

Regarding #3. If this is in regards to my post talking about how China stole US and Germany economic policy, I was misunderstood. The policy that I was referring to was the 'beggar-thy-neighbor' policy which was adopted by the US and Germany after WWII. It has to do with fiscal policy, not anything to do with esponiage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggar-thy-neighbor

The difference between the US and Germany economies versus China is that the US did not oppress lending in their own country, they did not stop their currencies from appreciating, they did not have ridiculous currency and trade imbalances, and most importantly they did not overheat the system to the precipice of world economic collapse. What China does not realize is that if they continue to advance their economy by destroying others (by creating money by buying securities from the developed world while supressing the yuan appreciation) the whole global economy will collapse. With the majority of the demand for Chinese products being exports, their economy will go with the rest of the world.

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22. Charles Finlay on December 16, 2011 8:16 PM writes...

You know spies. They're like a bunch of bitchy little girls.

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23. Kieth on December 16, 2011 8:27 PM writes...

Derek, I am not saying there is any contradiction, but your post below on the Prometheus Labs case exposes something overripe in our world of discovery and patenting science. The Prometheus Labs case, as I understand it, annoys you and others because of distortion of the "protection of intellectual property" to the point where the patent actually impedes (what most of us would regard as) progress. It's chickenshit. It would not surprise me if Chinese and Indian scientists regards our whole patent process in roughly the same way. Perhaps that that process has gotten so refined, so straightened by tactics, that it has lost its way.

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24. Clueless on December 16, 2011 8:47 PM writes...

This topic is much like talking about a coworker's sickness after a failure of targeting an insignificant receptor for one disease.......

Currency manipulation? Check out currency printing first.

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25. Sisyphus on December 16, 2011 9:21 PM writes...

Maybe not KCN, but it did happen to PS Baran:
Org. Lett. 2009, 11 (21), 4774–4776.

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26. Canadatown on December 17, 2011 12:35 AM writes...

@johnnyboy you hit the nail on the fallacies of this article and some U.S. centrist. Plus, as in the case of climate change conference and economic , it's incredibly self serving to say that if the U.S. does it first and have come to the point where it doesn't have to overcome the complexities again that another country such as China can not do it. The high-horse attitude is next to absurdity.

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27. T1 on December 17, 2011 3:18 AM writes...

First things first, industrial espionage happens everywhere and in every industry. With in the US companies spy on each for a number of reasons from gaining competitive information to determining if a company is worth buying. If you think this type of thing doesn't happen, then why do you lock your notebook up at night (or at least have a company policy to do so) an easy way into a company is through the cleaning crew. So get off your high horses and do your jobs, protect your IP, and influence where you can influence. Lock up your books, computers and sensitive materials.

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28. processchemist on December 17, 2011 4:08 AM writes...

@20

This exactly the point. I know about many cases of small companies setting up a facility in China with a local partner only to see the partner setting up a clone of his own in about 1 year (I'm not talking about pharma/chemical industry), companies with a chinese distributor with brand stealed or product reverse engeneered and rebranded and so on. Episodes of this kind can happen everywhere in the world. But in the western countries a legal action is easely taken and with good chances of success. In China the story is totally different. It's the chinese public system (the communist party) that is backing this and other kinds of unfair behaviours in business.
The best known case in our line of business is the Baxter eparin case: the chinese government not only denied that chondroitin sulfate was intentionally put in the product, but declared that from his investigations no link emerged between the contamination and the deaths of patients in the US.
But where the first responsibility lies? Not in China, but in the western world, where decisions about sourcing, outsourcing and offshoring (and the way you manage these processes) have been taken. And, more exactly, in the western financial and political system first. Before the great crisis, advisors of the global banks were advertising the advantages of setting up facilities in China, and in Europe some nations facilitated with public funds the same process (the label was "funds for business internationalization").

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29. cs on December 17, 2011 4:16 AM writes...

I second the thought of post# 8.

(Ooops !!! I hope I will not be treated as IP/copyright spy because I just said EXACTLY what post #8 said earlier)

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30. eugene on December 17, 2011 12:11 PM writes...

Well, at least the Chinsese are going to reap their humongous property bubble pretty soon. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/8957289/Chinas-epic-hangover-begins.html

Still, at least after two decades of stealing stuff they actually have factories and make things so when these credit-fueled ghost malls and ghost cities start making bankrupt Chinese developers commit suicide, the country will still have some solid ground to stand on to start over again.

Unlike some countries in the the West. Such as the UK which doesn't make much of anything anymore as is a 'financial center' that moved operations to China and closed chemistry departments recently. Not to mention their huge amount of debt and no idea how to pay it. England can easily sink a few of its modern day Titanics all on its own without any help from China.

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31. AlphaGamma on December 17, 2011 5:12 PM writes...

newnickname @18: Silk was kept a very closely-guarded secret by the Chinese, but its being revealed didn't involve torture- it involved a monk with a hollow walking stick full of silkworms!

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32. Henrik Olsen on December 17, 2011 7:46 PM writes...

Sorry, but this is a red-flag subject to me:

It's Tolkien damn it!

I before E and don't cite any half forgotten rules, they don't apply to foreign names.

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33. MoMo on December 17, 2011 10:42 PM writes...

Derek,

I realize you are a corporate wonk employed by Vertex, which extensively uses China to parlay cheap science into the its stable of potential drugs and for the good of Vertex.

But perhaps you ought to take a pro-American stance based on your past posts.

I hate to say this to you because you are so influential and Vertex must hate it, but get a spine my blogger-of-a-thousand words.

The history of American Pharma depends on it.

And for C and E and Rudy Baum-You are a traitor of the nth degree.

You should be studied.

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34. MoMo on December 17, 2011 11:01 PM writes...

I hereby stop my membership to the ACS-which should be renamed the Asian Chemical Society.

Grow a spine chemical scientists! Revolt with your memberships!

What good is it anyway?

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35. MoMo on December 17, 2011 11:02 PM writes...

I hereby stop my membership to the ACS-which should be renamed the Asian Chemical Society.

Grow a spine chemical scientists! Revolt with your memberships!

What good is it anyway?

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36. DDD on December 18, 2011 3:55 AM writes...

The only reason why China is spying more over the internet is because their hackers are much less paid than those in the U.S.

The same probably goes for the chemists in the West.

Stop whining - take less well-paid jobs and work hard for your country to get the outsourced jobs and honor back!!!

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37. DDD on December 18, 2011 3:56 AM writes...

The only reason why China is spying more over the internet is because their hackers are much less paid than those in the U.S.

The same probably goes for the chemists in the West.

Stop whining - take less well-paid jobs and work hard for your country to get the outsourced jobs and honor back!!!

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38. DDD on December 18, 2011 3:59 AM writes...

The only reason why China is spying more over the internet is because their hackers are much less paid than those in the U.S.

The same probably goes for the chemists in the West.

Stop whining - take less well-paid jobs and work hard for your country to get the outsourced jobs and honor back!!!

Permalink to Comment

39. DDD on December 18, 2011 4:00 AM writes...

The only reason why China is spying more over the internet is because their hackers are much less paid than those in the U.S.

The same probably goes for the chemists in the West.

Stop whining - take less well-paid jobs and work hard for your country to get the outsourced jobs and honor back!!!

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40. pTsOH on December 18, 2011 9:47 AM writes...

The KCN comment made my morning. Once other countries figure out that you can make really big molecules in really low yield with really a lot of postdocs, we're done.

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41. Anon on December 18, 2011 12:29 PM writes...

Don't forget the capacitor plague involving the theft of a chemical formula for electrolyte that was incomplete, that to this day is causing equipment failures.

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42. Slave ships off California on December 18, 2011 1:26 PM writes...

It's interesting that a Blueseed startup is planing to float huge platforms off the California coast so as to circumvent US laws on immigration and presumably everything else. No doubt it will largely be staffed by Chinese and Indians.

On the positive side at least the unemployed will be able to see the jobs with a pair of binoculars. Since there will be no laws, the employees can be simply flushed into the ocean when their projects are completed.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/16/blueseed-startup-sees-ent_n_1153300.html

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43. Slave ships off California on December 18, 2011 1:28 PM writes...

It's interesting that a Blueseed startup is planing to float huge platforms off the California coast so as to circumvent US laws on immigration and presumably everything else. No doubt it will largely be staffed by Chinese and Indians.

On the positive side at least the unemployed will be able to see the jobs with a pair of binoculars. Since there will be no laws, the employees can be simply flushed into the ocean when their projects are completed.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/16/blueseed-startup-sees-ent_n_1153300.html

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44. Curious Wavefunction on December 18, 2011 2:31 PM writes...

33 and 34: I realize you are a corporate wonk employed by Vertex, which extensively uses China to parlay cheap science into the its stable of potential drugs and for the good of Vertex.

That is an absurd comparison. How can legally employing the services of outfits in China for routine manufacture and contracting (NOT discovery level research) be equivalent to illegal hacking by Chinese groups of American pharmaceutical companies?

And it's equally absurd to ask Americans to man up and compete with their Chinese hacker counterparts. What next, calling American law enforcement agents wimps for not employing the tactics of the rival Russian mafia?

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45. Aw hell no on December 18, 2011 2:35 PM writes...

Are you dissing the brilliance of the KCN School of Total Synthesis? Time for a throw-down of epic proportions!

Ding, ding, ding! Lowe vs. Nicolaou, live on pay-per-view! Whose retrosynthetic analysis will reign supreme?

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46. hair on December 18, 2011 2:40 PM writes...

@Momo Right, I guess the root of the prolbem is "just too many goddammned asians". That's not facism at all. O wait...

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47. Anonymous on December 18, 2011 4:51 PM writes...

Momo, stop being an ass. Take a good look at yourself...

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48. Anon II on December 18, 2011 9:30 PM writes...

Momo, you are a complete dick. You were born a few years too late otherwise you would make a good soldier for the Führer.

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49. JH on December 19, 2011 5:18 AM writes...

Industrial espionage during WWII was pretty organized. Here's a list that will give a picture:

http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.gdc/scd0001.20090227001cl.1

They say those FIAT, CIOS and BIOS reports are useful material even today for example in process chemistry.

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50. JasonP on December 19, 2011 11:50 AM writes...

People keep bringing up the espionage during WWII. HELLO, we were AT WAR. Are you suggesting we are at war with China?

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51. j on December 19, 2011 3:00 PM writes...

Yes, we are at war, economically, for our future. Better that you wake up and realize it.

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52. anon on December 19, 2011 3:48 PM writes...

Those Chinese hackers were probably contract hires by Western companies. Outsourcing illegal work is a proven business model.

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53. Aillini on December 20, 2011 8:36 PM writes...

As a seasoned medicinal chemist myself and I am from China, I felt deeply sorry to see a nice blog to become a raciest forum. I suppose that you just can't blame your own fault because your company CEO to set up R&D site in China. I believe you just cannot deny what your company's competitive intelligence department have done is not espionage in one sense.

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54. Aillini on December 20, 2011 8:38 PM writes...

As a seasoned medicinal chemist myself and I am from China, I felt deeply sorry to see a nice blog to become a raciest forum. I suppose that you just can't blame your own fault because your company CEO to set up R&D site in China. I believe you just cannot deny what your company's competitive intelligence department have done is not espionage in one sense.

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55. Student on December 23, 2011 12:00 AM writes...

"A Chinese scientist who admitted to stealing trade secrets from two US firms has been sentenced to more than seven years in prison."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16297237

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56. saibot on January 1, 2012 7:04 AM writes...

"the US did just this ... back when it was an up-and-coming nation..."

The US apparently still does it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon#Patent_Dispute

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57. MoMo on January 13, 2012 6:02 PM writes...

Ye Gods! I am surrounded by anonymous Communists!

That's right I am a dick, a red, white and blue one!

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