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About this Author
DBL%20Hendrix%20small.png College chemistry, 1983

Derek Lowe The 2002 Model

Dbl%20new%20portrait%20B%26W.png After 10 years of blogging. . .

Derek Lowe, an Arkansan by birth, got his BA from Hendrix College and his PhD in organic chemistry from Duke before spending time in Germany on a Humboldt Fellowship on his post-doc. He's worked for several major pharmaceutical companies since 1989 on drug discovery projects against schizophrenia, Alzheimer's, diabetes, osteoporosis and other diseases. To contact Derek email him directly: derekb.lowe@gmail.com Twitter: Dereklowe

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In the Pipeline: Don't miss Derek Lowe's excellent commentary on drug discovery and the pharma industry in general at In the Pipeline

In the Pipeline

« Eribulin Gets Reviewed, Finally | Main | OCD Linked to the Immune System? »

June 4, 2010

Nativis: Waiting and Seeing

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Posted by Derek

I've been hearing a lot about Nativis since my post the other day, much of it from their CEO, who's sent along quite a bit of information. Two themes that reoccur are that the company is planning to publish on their technologies within the next few months, and that they're planning to file for an IND on their taxane-derived work.

Rather than continue to speculate on what the heck is going on with them, then, I'm going to wait until one or both these events happen. Either of them will provide a lot more data to work with, and either one will require convincing other observers that there's something worthwhile going on. Based on what I've seen, I remain skeptical, but there are always things that I haven't seen. We'll take up the topic again.

Comments (114) + TrackBacks (0) | Category: Snake Oil


COMMENTS

1. alig on June 4, 2010 7:50 AM writes...

If any IRB approves this clinical trial, they should all be fired. It is unethical to treat cancer patients with a placebo when real treatments exist.

Permalink to Comment

2. jasonb on June 4, 2010 8:16 AM writes...

This seems to be the modus operandi of the kooks though. Throw out incredible claims, then when its questioned say that "the real data will be published soon." and we will never hear of it again. Still waiting on LaClaire to publish something supporting his claim to hexacyclinol too, which he said years ago would be out "soon". If a followup to this with any "data" gets written Ill be very surprised.

Permalink to Comment

3. Han Solo chemist on June 4, 2010 8:38 AM writes...

I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's a "photonic field" that will take the place of real drugs. The data is always "forthcoming". Seems like the new cold fusion to me.

Permalink to Comment

4. John on June 4, 2010 9:35 AM writes...

Derek, this seems much too generous. I'd really appreciate it if you or someone else would call up their science advisors and see whether they read the claims before signing on.

Permalink to Comment

5. CB on June 4, 2010 9:53 AM writes...

No it is much worse than cold fusion or Beneveniste's junk science.

Both cold fusion and Beneviniste's claims at least had a protocol with scientific experiments and a hypothesis that could be tested and scrutinized by other scientists.

Nothing in any of the patents presents any data that lends credence to any of the claims on the Nativis website.

It appears that John T. Butters also ran wavbank, prior nativis, the same type of nonsensical patents are associated with the name. I wonder how that company worked out?

I have found that many companies are selling stock and raising funds based on completely bogus ideas, many of them trade on the pink sheets.

Permalink to Comment

6. EC on June 4, 2010 10:58 AM writes...

It would be great if it worked

or

If it works so well, then it shouldn't be hard to demonstrate

either way let's see the data

Permalink to Comment

7. EC on June 4, 2010 11:08 AM writes...

It would be great if it worked

or

If it works so well, then it shouldn't be hard to demonstrate

either way let's see the data

Permalink to Comment

8. EC on June 4, 2010 11:08 AM writes...

It would be great if it worked

or

If it works so well, then it shouldn't be hard to demonstrate

either way let's see the data

Permalink to Comment

9. liam ondnes on June 4, 2010 12:24 PM writes...

alig nailed it here... these people are, in essence, leveraging the fear and uncertainty associated with serious diseases to extort money from 'investors.' but the investors are not really the concern: hopefully the regulatory agencies crack down on these quacks before they get around to killing people with their useless 'technology' who might otherwise have a chance in a legitimate clinical trial. the investors should demand to see RAW data from double-blind experiments before allowing another dollar of their money to be wasted on this nonsense. that money could actually be put to good use funding legitimate research efforts.

Permalink to Comment

10. geezer on June 4, 2010 12:31 PM writes...

It would be great if you could

just

hit the Post button once

thanks

Permalink to Comment

11. SRC on June 4, 2010 12:34 PM writes...

You are charitable, Derek.

I'll revisit this issue if and when further data become available, but for now, I'll have to go with the text of the patents. And they're impenetrable gobbledy-gook.

So I put this one in the AGW bin unless and until they put up or shut up.

Permalink to Comment

12. liam ondnes on June 4, 2010 1:14 PM writes...

alig nailed it here... these people are, in essence, leveraging the fear and uncertainty associated with serious diseases to extort money from 'investors.' but the investors are not really the concern: hopefully the regulatory agencies crack down on these quacks before they get around to killing people with their useless 'technology' who might otherwise have a chance in a legitimate clinical trial. the investors should demand to see RAW data from double-blind experiments before allowing another dollar of their money to be wasted on this nonsense. that money could actually be put to good use funding legitimate research efforts.

Permalink to Comment

13. Iridium on June 4, 2010 1:48 PM writes...

When I commented to a co-worker about the first post Derek made about Nativis she had the following response, minus the obligatory 'what the heck?!?' type comments: "So if these people need to record photon field signals of APIs for their their 'drugs', what's going to happen when they run out of drugs to record? They're at the mercy of real drug companies to actually discover drugs, do all the development legwork, run the clinical trials, etc."

Granted, there are enough drugs out there to record signals for and re-hash as 'new treatments', but they're never going to develop anything to treat unmet medical needs (unless there whole 'Taxol with no side effects' business is true). All this company is peddling beyond apparent snake oil is extreme versions of 'Me Too' drugs.

Permalink to Comment

14. JasonP on June 4, 2010 1:55 PM writes...

I'm going down there to the site in a little bit to poke around. I'll report what I see.

Permalink to Comment

15. researchfella on June 4, 2010 2:15 PM writes...

@Alig "It is unethical to treat cancer patients with a placebo when real treatments exist."

That's pretty much the case for all oncology clinical studies with new therapies. Typically it's patients who don't respond or no longer respond to all established treatment options who are treated with potential new therapies.

But, anyway, it's sad to give these patients false hope with a supposed photon field treatment.

Permalink to Comment

16. MTK on June 4, 2010 2:16 PM writes...

Jason,

If we don't hear from you by 6 we'll send the hounds.

Permalink to Comment

17. Evorich on June 4, 2010 2:30 PM writes...

Not only do they exploit the need for new technologies, and new cures, they do it by exploiting the fundemental misunderstanding of science and the scientific process that the majority of people. They seem to want to exploit a perceived gray area that in fact does not exist.

Q: why would the relatively upstanding board members sign up? Money??

Permalink to Comment

18. Evorich on June 4, 2010 2:31 PM writes...

Not only do they exploit the need for new technologies, and new cures, they do it by exploiting the fundemental misunderstanding of science and the scientific process that the majority of people. They seem to want to exploit a perceived gray area that in fact does not exist.

Q: why would the relatively upstanding board members sign up? Money??

Permalink to Comment

19. JasonP on June 4, 2010 11:18 PM writes...

OK, would have posted earlier but my connectivity to this web site has been spotty today. No need to send the dogs!

I swung down there at lunch to have a look. I use to work in the area and yes indeed it is an expensive area. Usually only the big guys are here, with the small potato companies in the Sorrento Valley area a little inland.

I walked into the building and was immediately questioned by a Facebook reading security guard who wanted to know my business. Not use to security guards caring quite that much. I said that I was a reporter from 'In the Pipeline with Derek Lowe'...just kidding, I mentioned that I was impressed with Nativis' technology and was interested in getting information on the company and job opportunities. He was quick to answer, almost like he’s done this many times before. He knew about John and Lisa Butters and called into the office. Today only the secretary was there and said I would have to come back another time, where a little later on the second floor of the lobby a concerned woman came out and checked out the scene.

That was all the info I could get from him other than a card. Before I left I took a picture of the sign in front of the building. I also took a quick peek into their very tinted windows. Was not able to see much but it seemed like all I could see was office style tables and lamps, a little bare. Would be surprised if a bunch of research was going on in there.

Go to the link below for my cell phone pic of the front sign, and a scan of the business card the guard gave me.

http://s900.photobucket.com/albums/ac205/JasonP_2010/

Permalink to Comment

20. Sili on June 4, 2010 11:27 PM writes...

their CEO, who's sent along quite a bit of information.
Seriously? He sent their vaporware to a real scientist? So does he have chutzpah, or has he just deceived himself as well? Permalink to Comment

21. Sili on June 4, 2010 11:34 PM writes...

I said that I was a reporter from 'In the Pipeline with Derek Lowe
Derek, you should have business cards made for us to use in cases like this. Citizen reporting!
So I put this one in the AGW bin unless and until they put up or shut up.
Based on this I wouldn't trust you to recognise gobbledegook if it bit you on the nose. Permalink to Comment

22. cnbc on June 4, 2010 11:44 PM writes...

This appears to be an interview with nativis on CNBC. It starts about halfway through the clip. Anyone able to make anything of it from what they show of their lab space?

http://www.theecocapitalist.com/episode1-part3.html

Permalink to Comment

23. Evorich on June 5, 2010 12:42 AM writes...

Jason - thank you so much for the reporting expedition - I'm glad you came back unscathed!

Permalink to Comment

24. Evorich on June 5, 2010 2:37 AM writes...

John - there was a comment by their ex-BMS advisor in one article - he basically just said no-one understood it. Their one phd scientist on their team has disappeared from LinkedIn. I don't think the investors did much dd. I tried contacting them to ask some questions like these. They forwarded my questions to Butters and he forwarded them to his lawyers and cc'd me.I got the feeling that this was a thinly veiled threat.

Permalink to Comment

25. Smitten on June 5, 2010 9:31 AM writes...

There should not be any waiting and seeing. These people should be in jail.

Permalink to Comment

26. John on June 5, 2010 11:10 AM writes...

JasonP: I'm afraid the card scan came out illegible, but we definitely appreciate your efforts.

Permalink to Comment

27. AR on June 5, 2010 12:51 PM writes...

Ha! I’ve enjoyed following the JasonP subterfuge. Sounds like a reality series to me.

Permalink to Comment

28. AR on June 5, 2010 12:52 PM writes...

Ha! I've enjoyed following the JasonP subterfuge. Sounds like a reality series to me.

Permalink to Comment

29. Chemjobber on June 5, 2010 1:03 PM writes...

Awesome, JasonP! Man, I miss that area.

Permalink to Comment

30. Watson on June 5, 2010 5:25 PM writes...

I went to google patents to see what all the hubbub was about. From what I can tell, they have developed a screening methodology where you use known drug ligands attached to micro/nano particles containing a fluorescent moiety and 1-several quantum dots (cadmium compounds) which rotate under an applied magnetic field.

In a sense this is akin to KIMS, just with the application of a magnetic field which induces a rotation by interacting with the quantum dots. One of their claims is that this can be used for screening unknowns based upon their ability to enhance or degrade the resultant measured fluorescence.

Another patent is where it gets hokey for me: namely, feeding the recorded signal back through an electromagnetic coil or series of coils which contains a properly placed patient. This radiation, not the visible fluorescent radiation from the recording experiment, is claimed to have therapeutic affect.

They aren't "magnetizing" water or manufacturing some sort of lasting "field" in water, although the ex-BMS scientist on the video claims that's what they're doing. It seems like they are taking a giant step here and claiming that the electromagnetic radiation observed from the interaction of macromolecules with their screening system is capable of inducing macromolecules to adjust their conformations in the absence of ligand.

I think this is why they chose taxol - they are trying to demonstrate that the influence of this electromagnetic field can either enhance or disrupt(?) tubulin aggregation.

I certainly hope that this is crap, otherwise some entrepreneur is going to patent electromagnetic drugs of abuse which can't be detected by established screening technologies. Then my work is going to get quite a bit more difficult. I'll wait and see, as well.

Permalink to Comment

31. 10kdays on June 5, 2010 7:37 PM writes...

Came across your blog article on Nativis.

JasonP you're retarded; if you want to see images of their bldg and lab just watch the freaking CNBC World show. What a dumbass. Do you think they had cameras watching you? You're photo is probably sitting on an FBI agents desk. What are you a stalker?

Now for a little intelligence, which seems to be lacking on this so very important blog: :/

I did a bit of checking myself, which took me all of 5 minutes; they've been incorporated for 8 years, changed their name from WavBank to Nativis. They've been members of BIO and SoCal BIOCOM for years.

Hey geniuses, another simple search reveals that Nasa Ames Research and Darpa have been trying to do exactly what Nativis is claiming.

Maybe it's all true, maybe not.

Are any of you scientists? Really, I'm serious.

Better yet, are any of you employed? Dork!

Hey Derek, if I was Vertex I would fire your ass and hire someone with half a brain.

I hear WalMart's hiring.

What a piece of shit blog.

Can one of you come over? I need my car washed.


Permalink to Comment

32. JasonP on June 5, 2010 8:39 PM writes...

Dude, 10kdays, can I come over and wash your car please? I always respect guys who make flaming forum posts. It shows a lot of character and bravery.

Your points about the CNBC article are so true. What could I have possibly gained from poking around the site and seeing no scientific equipment, or talking to one of the totally absent scientists there.

Dude I know: you should start your own blog! I'm so there.

Permalink to Comment

33. Nat on June 5, 2010 8:50 PM writes...

Reading the infantile and profane responses from outraged partisans is always the most fun part of these posts about controversial startups and snake-oil salesmen. Hey Derek, can you post about Blacklight Power again? That should be good for several days of laughs.

Regarding the claims of Nativis, I don't know enough about quantum mechanics to even begin to evaluate whether they're lying, confused, or merely delusional, but I have to agree with the commenters who say this sounds an awful lot like a high-tech update of homeopathy. If comment #30 is an accurate summary of that patent, well, I've heard more convincing technobabble on "Star Trek." But screw it, our tax dollars aren't paying for this, so I'd just as soon sit back and enjoy the show.

Permalink to Comment

34. Watson on June 5, 2010 9:40 PM writes...

@Nat

I work in drugs-of-abuse testing, and the analytical technology they describe seems like a new form of bioassay. More specifically, all of the drug screens we used were based on KIMS (kinetic interaction of microparticles in solution).

You don't have to understand the technobabble, but you should be aware that similar technologies to the ones they patented already exist and are used by a majority of the drug-testing industry, as well as by clinical labs around the world.

On the other hand, as I mentioned in my other post, I'll believe the therapeutic claim when I see it.

Permalink to Comment

35. Firma on June 6, 2010 2:25 AM writes...

It seems infantile responses from outraged partisans goes both ways over this story (minus the profane of course).

To be honest the only consistency in these comments is a lack of objectivity and professionalism.

I can't fathom nativis's claims or patents either, but I think Derek's position has been the most reasonable... healthy - even pointed - skepticism is a valued commodity and a respectable position. Witch hunts are not.

In other words, grow up people.

Permalink to Comment

36. Seastar on June 6, 2010 2:53 AM writes...

Just look in to the credentials and past lawsuits/ claims and filings against John and Lisa. Wouldn't give 'em my money!

Permalink to Comment

37. eugene on June 6, 2010 3:43 AM writes...

"I can't fathom nativis's claims or patents either, but I think Derek's position has been the most reasonable... healthy - even pointed - skepticism is a valued commodity and a respectable position. Witch hunts are not."

On the contrary, they are quite easy to fathom. Let me give you an analogy. The claim by the NASA chief that the US can send a manned mission to Mars in the next ten years would invite disbelief from most scientists, and healthy disagreement. The claim by NASA's chief that the US is going to send a manned mission to Alpha Centauri in the next ten years, would invite a very justified witch hunt calling for the chief's head.

There is no reason to entertain someone who says they can walk on water unless they do it right in front of you right then. Then you're just wasting your valuable time. This particular claim is so far on the side of improbable, that it is worth to dismiss it outright and not waste my valuable time except for the humor value.

Permalink to Comment

38. Firma on June 6, 2010 5:11 AM writes...

@Eugene

So you're saying Comer, Dehlinger, Herr, Radich, Yakatan and Jones have all lost their collective minds? That's an equally tall order imho.

That's the weak link in this fast lane to ridicule, for me at least. There appear to be a number of credible individuals involved, and it appears that they are not tacked on names, if they are appearing on cnbc etc.

I'd just as well reserve my own personal judgement until they've published, or until it appears that will not happen. Hot air blows both ways.

*shrug* I get it though, this me too! me too! firing squad /slash/ circus is good for a laugh, that's what blogs are for.

Permalink to Comment

39. Firma on June 6, 2010 5:13 AM writes...

@Seastar

Can you link your findings? After a few quick google searches I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Permalink to Comment

40. Evorich on June 6, 2010 6:50 AM writes...

10Kdays - could you post links to your mention of NASA and DARPA research in these areas?

I couldn't find this technology was being used towards this aim by anyone else.

Also - why are you so angry an abusive?

Permalink to Comment

41. Nat on June 6, 2010 9:23 AM writes...

Watson--

You don't have to understand the technobabble, but you should be aware that similar technologies to the ones they patented already exist and are used by a majority of the drug-testing industry, as well as by clinical labs around the world.

I was referring specifically to the therapeutic claim - the screening methodology sounded reasonable enough.

Permalink to Comment

42. JasonP on June 6, 2010 11:15 AM writes...

About the CNBC show, for those of us who have actually worked in life science labs, it is an easy identifier of BS when the lab is working with multicolored liquids. 99% of life science work is with clear liquids. The only probable colored liquid in that oddly clean and free of clutter lab was the pink cell culture media.

What was that one green with black spots solution the one guy was working on...frog eggs? Xenopus oocyte?

It would be damn funny though if the research turned out legitimate somehow. I wouldn't hold you r breath on that one.

Permalink to Comment

43. Soundbite. on June 6, 2010 12:00 PM writes...

I watched the CNBC show too. If they can do what I think I heard them say they can do.....well, that would be funny.

Has anyone talked with the scientists Yakatan, Comer, Radich for a more thorough "explanation" of what they are up to?

A google of Nativis doesn't provide much. What is known about the CEO or who is backing them?

Permalink to Comment

44. Doglotion on June 6, 2010 1:51 PM writes...

I think I'm going to go with the comments of the International Examiner on this one:

"...the claimed subject-matter contradict the established laws of physics and cannot be performed, therefore they are not industrially applicable..."

www.wipo.int/pctdb/images1/PATENTSCOPE/93/79/3d/00793d.pdf

Permalink to Comment

45. Evorich on June 6, 2010 1:53 PM writes...

All of the lab footage in the CNBC piece seems to have nothing to do with the claimed technology. Everything is clips of people doing animal (pink) and bacterial (plates & green liquid) cell cultures, and then some amusing clips of people watching educational-type animations of cartoon DNA - as if scientists actually do that in the lab!! There's then the similar clip of them explaining, at a high-school level, DNA transcription on a white board - and people are writing it down! Quite funny! This has absolutely nothing to do with their technology or even the drugs they're proposing that their technology can emulate.

Christine Bonzon was the scientist doing a lot of work in a lot of the clips.

It's also hilarious that John Butters continues to speak in gooblydegook throughout the piece. Usually scientists are asked to explain themselves in layman's terms but he's allowed to say crap like "transduces the signal to the dipole solution" and everyone is expected to just "wow - that sounds cool!"

It was like watching a sort of badly advised science clip from disney world or a tv show. In fact, most tv shows these days, E.g. CSI or something, do a better job or showing relevant and accurate scientific clips than these guys did. It's so obviously fake it's unbelievable!

This whole piece was just marketing propaganda for people who aren't scientists.

The only convincing/confusing part of that piece was the interview with Comer. I.e Why is he associating himself so directly with something that he openly admits he doesn't understand?? He even goes on to spout his own form of BS marketing for the technology at the end. Quite sad actually.

Permalink to Comment

46. Sciencegirl on June 6, 2010 3:42 PM writes...

Uh....Just finishing up undergraduate biochemistry and I have to agree with the post that outlines how disneyesque the video is. I am changing careers, going from marketing to science, and I have to say - wow! watching this video made me realize that there is, in fact, an intersection between marketing and science!

Did a little checking and it turns out that neither John nor Lisa Butters has a college degree of any sort, let alone one in a science. John Butters is talking out his backside. He doesn't know jack about cell biology. Impressive marketing blab, but geez! give us all a break. And Lisa Butters background? She used to sell baby clothes at Nordstrom (no joke). They are a couple of shysters. John Butters has been at the game of conning people out of their money for years.

I hope nobody considers giving the man a dime without checking into his past activities. He has left a trail of people to whom he owes money. It's a matter of public record.

Permalink to Comment

47. eugene on June 6, 2010 4:08 PM writes...

"That's the weak link in this fast lane to ridicule, for me at least. There appear to be a number of credible individuals involved, and it appears that they are not tacked on names, if they are appearing on cnbc etc."

Plenty of smart people have been known to be wrong. Besides, I don't care. I consider myself a credible individual when it comes to these matters. And I trust my judgement more and am more affected by it. If you're not even a little qualified to make sense of this company's claim, you are welcome to wait for more evidence. My expert judgement says: ridicule.

If there is something that I don't know that they are hiding, then I wouldn't want to invest in a company that prints such garbage (to cover up intelligent and plausible technological advances) anyways.

Permalink to Comment

48. Silmarillion on June 6, 2010 7:46 PM writes...

10kdays:

Since this is a pharma blog, here are some names you might consider discussing with your doctor:
Cynbalta, Xanax, Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil, Celexa, Valium, Atavan, Klonopin, BuSpar, Remeron, Librium...

Remember that there are adverse side-effects for most of these and you should consult your doctor at once if you experience tightness in the throat or difficulty breathing, eating or drinking. You should also avoid using heavy machinery while taking these medications. You may consider finding less-stressful blogs to follow.

Several Disney-related websites offer games and other diversions which can reduce stress and otherwise provide helpful relaxation. A good hot bath might help too.

Permalink to Comment

49. seastar on June 6, 2010 8:15 PM writes...

@ Firma

tip of the iceberg is here:
case number 97-14972 as well as 96-04825 in King County, Seattle Washington

all a matter of public record.

Permalink to Comment

50. island on June 6, 2010 8:18 PM writes...

Has anyone seen their (John and Lisa) education background or checked it out?

Permalink to Comment

51. Evorich on June 7, 2010 2:19 AM writes...

@ Seastar - I couldn't find anything - could you post links.

Permalink to Comment

52. Lizard_juice on June 7, 2010 5:15 AM writes...

Not sure anyone had read this already, but I guess this is where the money is coming from:

http://www.seattlepi.com/sound/420084_sound93817549.html

30 investors. 30 people conned. Very sad.

I'm guessing 10kdays may have been one of those people and is pretty stressed about his money at the moment.

Permalink to Comment

53. RB Woodweird on June 7, 2010 6:14 AM writes...

I happen to be Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas Queen, Defender of the Faith, etc. etc.

The data demonstrating this fact is forthcoming.

Permalink to Comment

54. Silmarillion on June 7, 2010 7:32 AM writes...

Queen Elizabeth:

I think it is pretty cool that Royalty would visit Derek's blog. By the way, I've heard about the "Royal Aura." Do you also have a "photon field?" If so, does it look just like you? Does it in any way enable you to be at two places at the same time? Is it kind of like having a clone?

Your loyal subject,
Silmarillion

Permalink to Comment

55. Evorich on June 7, 2010 9:09 AM writes...

Your Majesty, does your royal aura allow you to transduce yourself to a dipole solution and cross my blood-brain-barrier?? This would be fantastic if you could!

Permalink to Comment

56. Hap on June 7, 2010 9:16 AM writes...

I don't think that would be a good idea. Turning your life into "All Of Me" but with the British Royal Family stuck in your head seems like an easy way to go nuts.

Permalink to Comment

57. RB Woodweird on June 7, 2010 10:04 AM writes...

My humble and obedient servants,

We are not amused by the unwarranted audacity of those who would transgress the laws of Nature and God. As the aforementioned Defender of the Faith, we take our responsibility to maintain the tradition of cause and effect seriously. This Nativis situation distresses us, and should these blackguards and knaves set foot in any part of the Empire, they should be forewarned that we have swords which, though they be ceremonial, are sharpened quite regularly.

Elizabeth R*

*(as far as you know)

Permalink to Comment

58. Nativis on June 7, 2010 11:30 AM writes...

Derek,

Thank you again for starting the debate on Nativis’ drug signal therapy. We appreciate your review of our preclinical data and third-party statistical analysis, which we provided you last week. The data speak for themselves. We also appreciate your skepticism and look forward to changing your mind. Many of our science advisory board members had questions early on, but are now fully supportive having seen the statistically significant results of our preclinical testing.

We understand and agree that peer review journals are one of the most important processes for any new technology. Based on the next series of trial results, Nativis anticipates filing an investigative new drug (IND) application for Digitax with the Food and Drug Administration in fall 2010. The new data will also be the foundation for scientific papers on the Nativis platform, which are planned for submission to peer-reviewed journals in the next six months.

Looking forward to providing you with this data and discussing our technology with you again soon.

Sincerely,

John Butters, CEO

Nativis Inc.

Permalink to Comment

59. islands on June 7, 2010 11:36 AM writes...

once again, blah, blah, blah marketing gobbletygook from Mr. B.
Where did you learn your "science" Mr. Butters?

Permalink to Comment

60. Nativis on June 7, 2010 11:48 AM writes...

Derek,

Thank you again for starting the debate on Nativis drug signal therapy. We appreciate your review of our preclinical data and third-party statistical analysis, which we provided you last week. The data speak for themselves. We also appreciate your skepticism and look forward to changing your mind. Many of our science advisory board members had questions early on, but are now fully supportive having seen the statistically significant results of our preclinical testing.

We understand and agree that peer review journals are one of the most important processes for any new technology. Based on the next series of trial results, Nativis anticipates filing an investigative new drug (IND) application for Digitax with the Food and Drug Administration in fall 2010. The new data will also be the foundation for scientific papers on the Nativis platform, which are planned for submission to peer-reviewed journals in the next six months.

Looking forward to providing you with this data and discussing our technology with you again soon.

Sincerely,
John Butters, CEO
Nativis Inc.

Permalink to Comment

61. John on June 7, 2010 12:29 PM writes...

John Butters: Perhaps you'd be willing to address the WIPO rejection of your patent claims as manifestly unphysical?

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62. SRC on June 7, 2010 12:53 PM writes...

In the absence of hard data, scientists default to skepticism when the claim is implausible on its face. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Conversely, anyone who doesn't follow that dictum isn't a scientist, regardless of whether or not he occasionally wears a labcoat.

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63. Hap on June 7, 2010 1:25 PM writes...

If you make the claim that X is real, you ought to have the data in hand (and in public) to make that claim. Not "well, we'll eventually get this data", but actually in hand (because there's a very large gap between "I think this is real" and "this is real"). Since there isn't a body of data present to which to refer to show that these sorts of field effects exist and have therapeutic utility, the data that Nativis presents is all there is to show that these effects exist. Invoking data that no one else can see doesn't help, because until the data is public no one else can check the claims - all anyone else has is your word, which isn't verifiable for most people and doesn't constitute evidence.

Showing data with your claims would seem to be more important in this case since the basic claims sound a lot like a variety of past theories that have not been shown to be true, and distinguishing one's claims from those past theories would be pretty important to establish credibility. On the other hand, we're probably not prospective investors (although their barriers to getting credibility should be higher, since they're actually putting up money) and aren't entitled to any explanations.

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64. sciencegirl on June 7, 2010 2:00 PM writes...

Can't decide who is funnier - "Queen Elizabeth" or John Butters!

Really - look up the cases listed by seastar. Those aren't the only ones out there, but it's a start in getting a load of what Mr. who-needs-any-education-in-science-to-treat-cancer Butters and Mrs. directly-from-selling-babyclothes-at-Nordstrom-to-COO-of-a-biotech Butters have in mind with this latest scheme. They are masters at fleecing people out of large sums of money. They've done it before and if the word doesn't get out on this current load of crap, they will surely do it again.

Permalink to Comment

65. Evorich on June 7, 2010 2:21 PM writes...

I actually couldn't find the cases Sciencegirl - could you maybe post some links?

I find it very hard to believe that the FDA will accept the IND application, let alone that the trials will show anything meaningful should they ever happen.

Permalink to Comment

66. lightheaded on June 7, 2010 3:15 PM writes...

I found the King County website here but I couldn't find those case numbers or anything under "Butters, John". Seastar or Sciencegirl, can you link a search showing the cases in question?

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68. Optimistic on June 7, 2010 3:40 PM writes...

I see where all of the skeptics are coming from because this technology seems unbelievable. But who’s to say that it isn’t legit? I mean, at one point, “scholars” claimed the world was flat.
Nativis’ lab results, patent approvals, mouse studies and solid SAB board seem to be on the right track to building credibility. Like the rest of you, I’m anxiously awaiting some real results and third party validation. I hope (for the sake of Nativis, their investors and future patients who could benefit from this “breakthrough” technology) that they are onto something. In the mean time, I’ll bite my tongue until I see FDA approval and success in human trials.

Permalink to Comment

69. laff on June 7, 2010 4:04 PM writes...

Re: http://media.digitalarchives.wa.gov/WA.Media/jpeg/339AACFCD493BAF91912BBE6BBF54C6A_1.jpg

This doesn't tell us anything. Really, what is the point and intent of linking things like this that have absolutely zero contextual value? A lawyer might be able to answer that question and if I were the Butters I'd sure as hell be talking to one.

What I see here at In the Pipeline is a concerted smear campaign against individuals that haven't tried to sell you anything, haven't tried to convince you of anything, and in their own words are still in the process of putting their case together. Really, all this hate and vitriol over a 4 minute tv clip and a website? Pretty pathetic from this community.

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70. JasonP on June 7, 2010 4:16 PM writes...

I'm not big on law, but is any of this criminal, and should it be reported to an authority of some sort? I guess if they are not selling something to someone (other than the investors), then a company can establish and make any claim it wants with reckless abandon.

Unless they are collecting investment in general by selling a fraudulent idea. Wouldn't that be illegal?

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71. JasonP on June 7, 2010 4:21 PM writes...

"hate and vitriol"

Pfft, it's easy to spot the posters associated with this company. The anger displayed in their posts like 10k betrays an actual illegitimacy. Anyone who truly believed in their work would say such as: 'you'll see, we're going to prove it to you!'

We're laughing about a rather implausible claim with little to back it up. The only one who could see this otherwise is someone with a personal stake in the situation.

Permalink to Comment

72. john b on June 7, 2010 4:49 PM writes...

I think it just speaks to the credibility of the people involved, that's all.

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73. sciencegirl on June 7, 2010 4:53 PM writes...

So, here's what I found out about the remarkable Mr. Butters:

He filed for bankruptcy on 11/12/97. (U.S. Bankruptcy Court case 97-14972) Apparently his scam at the time had to do with land development. For quite a while, he lived a pretty lavish lifestyle with other people's money, but managed to stay ahead of his game of rounding up investors for projects that never quite happened until 1997 when it all came crashing down and he had to declare bankruptcy with cash on handed listed at $28.18. His list of creditors is fairly impressive. Interstate General Partnership (one of the groups that invested and one of those creditors - owed nearly $1 million) sued him for mismanagement and there was a judgement against Butters.

If you do a simple search with Butters' name and "judgments" at the Snohomish County Auditor's site, you will find 6 judgments against Butters, including those in favor of Interstate General Partnership. King County doesn't seem to have a way to search records as efficiently as Snohomish County, but there are other cases involving Butters in King County as well.

In spite of his miraculous transformation from a genius developer to a genius biotech guy who is making breakthrough developments in the treatment of cancer - I'm kinda thinking I will keep my wallet closed.

Permalink to Comment

74. JasonP on June 7, 2010 5:06 PM writes...

Wow, nice investigative work john b and sciencegirl!

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75. Watson on June 7, 2010 6:10 PM writes...

This technology sounds quite a bit like Radionics, who would have prior art if the technology were still under patent. Seeing as Dr. Albert Abrams is remarkably dead (ca. 1924), I don't suppose he could comment on the theory behind these remarkable vibrations and differentiate his device from theirs.

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76. partial agonist on June 7, 2010 6:15 PM writes...

#68 said: "Nativis’ lab results, patent approvals, mouse studies and solid SAB board seem to be on the right track to building credibility..."

Nativis’ lab results- none yet known or published
patent approvals- there are none, only patent applications- big difference!
mouse studies- again, where? link?
solid SAB board- ummmmm... maybe, I guess, or they are out to make a buck too

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77. Silmarillion on June 7, 2010 6:41 PM writes...

If all this turns out to be pure fiction (looks likely), I think the Queen should knight Derek: "I do knight thee "Sir Derek of Arkansas", for noble service to the Crown in slaying the dreaded dragon Nativis which did attempte to project it's "photon field" upon the peasantry, resulting in much feare and dreade.

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78. ToBeFair on June 7, 2010 10:14 PM writes...

I just realized that Nativis' original response to all this was somehow taken off the site. I actually saved it on my computer and posted it again below. I believe in a discussion like this it is important to hear from the company itself--It makes the debate both balanced and fair.

Dear Derek:

Thank you for starting the debate on “drug signal therapy”. We’re looking forward to ongoing exchanges and to answering the most ardent critics and skeptics.

Over the past 8 years, we’ve devoted our time, energy and careers to researching and developing Nativis science and technology, and demonstrating its potential to treat serious diseases. In the last three years, we have been joined by scientists from academia and major pharmaceutical companies in our quest. Based on statistically significant results, we have full confidence that drug signal therapy will change traditional medicine as we know it.

For the record, I would like to clear up some misconceptions and myths you stated in your blog. I also wish you had checked with our company on the questions you raised (in my mind, the prudent first step for any due diligence process). We will be submitting papers for peer review in the next several months and look forward to an engaged scientific debate. In the interim, here is more background information and points of validation on the technology, processes and our Company:

Scientists have seen the in vitro and preclinical data and believe in its potential
Like you, we had (and still have) an army of skeptics, including those we invited to join our staff and Science Advisory Board. Bottom line: when they saw our tubulin polymerization non-cell, TEM, tissue culture, cytology and CRO preclinical data they also became believers.

• “My first impression was that this is outrageous. But after seeing the data and, especially the statistical analysis and statistical significance, I was sold,” said Dr. Brad Jones, M.D., Nativis' Science Advisory Board.

• "Nativis has talked to a lot of investors who've had formal training in physics and they still don't get it. It's just so radically different that I think the whole concept needs a lot of validation by well-known academic people. ... That's what the company's trying to do,” said San Diego biotech veteran and member of Nativis’ Science Advisory Board, William Comer, Ph.D.

Our staff and Science Advisory Board include top research scientists with PhD’s, research technicians and top biotech veterans. Many are well-known in the medical research industry and have made major advances in cancer treatments and drug development. Below are the highlights:

• William Comer, Ph.D., Nativis’ Science Advisory Board. Comer led the team that created Bristol-Myers Squibb Company’s blockbuster cancer drug Taxol, the drug that Digitax is based on.

• Jerry Radich, M.D., Nativis’ Science Advisory Board. Radich is currently the medical director and Head of Liquid Tumor Oncology at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle.

• Gerald Yakatan, Ph.D., Nativis’ Science Advisory Board. Yakatan has successfully been through the grueling FDA approval process for several novel medical compounds.

For more information on our staff and who advises Nativis, visit: http://www.nativis.us/pdf/Nativis%20Management%20Team%20and%20Scientific%20Advisory%20Board.pdf

Next Steps: Human Trials
I understand and appreciate the big leap from pre-clinical animal testing to human trials. That is why we’re looking forward to announcing the start of trials shortly with two leading cancer research centers on the west coast that focus on untreatable brain tumors. This could be exciting for patients who are currently without hope.

Based on the next series of preclinical results, Nativis anticipates filing an investigative new drug (IND) application for Digitax with the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in fall 2010.

The new data will also be the foundation for scientific papers on the Nativis platform, which are planned for submission to peer-reviewed journals in the next six months.

Searching for the underlying scientific explanation
Throughout our company’s history, we have consulted with a number of distinguished scientists to help us try to understand the scientific basis for our observations, both at the level of understanding the basis of drug-specific low-frequency signals, and the ability of such signals to influence biological signals in a drug-specific way. Our search for answers to this question over the years has led us in two promising directions.

On a phenomenological level, we believe that the drug-signal effect we are observing is related to stable microstructures formed in water in response to various conditions, including irradiation by light and impressed electromagnetic signals. The phenomenon of stable microstructure in water is being actively studied by several researchers throughout world, including Nobel laureate Professor Luc Montagnier in France, Professor Martin Chaplin in the UK and Professor Gerald Pollack at the University of Washington, to name a few. All three researchers have provided and continue to provide us with helpful input and suggestions. To date, we have preliminary spectroscopic evidence demonstrating the formation of stable water structures in signal-treated aqueous samples, and we believe ultimately that the spectroscopic changes we are observing will provided a simple method for confirming the activity of signal-treated solutions.

On a theoretical level, we have consulted with a number of physicists, to explore the connections between low-frequency electromagnetic signals and changes in water structure. One promising lead is based on the theory of QED Coherence in Condensed Matter. In particular, Professors Giuliani Preparata and Emilio Del Guidice in Milan, Italy have written extensively on the relationship between the interaction of electromagnetic radiation with water and altered water structures. I hope you will provide your physical mailing address so I can forward a copy of Preparata's book, QED Coherence in Condensed Matter. In an earlier email, I also attached a comprehensive list of papers on QED; in particular, please see the attached papers by Del Guidice, who was Preparata's colleague. Preparata passed away several years ago.

You might also enjoy the excellent lecture by Professor Pollack at the University of Washington on ordering of water structure by light. The lecture video is available on our website:
www.nativis.com

Homeopathy
Nativis science and technology has nothing to do with homeopathy. Homeopathy is simply based on highly diluted substances. There is no theoretical basis for homeopathy.

Mouse Studies
In contrast, Nativis lead product candidate “Digitax” has shown to be statistically relevant in CRO preclinical studies, significantly reducing tumor volume in U-87 human-line glioblastoma tumor xenograft mouse models. Attached is a report by CRO Molecular Diagnostic Services.

Patents
Our company holds several U.S. and Foreign patents, which include five U.S. and eight foreign patents, plus filings in 34 countries. Nativis has the exclusive rights for drug signal technology, the drug signal and related processes for transduction to biological systems.

RNAi
Our second product path is centered on early data demonstrating our ability to knockdown specific mRNA, specific protein and other targets in vitro and in preclinical studies via oral gavage. We believe this is suggestive of actual systemic delivery.

Again, I invite you to our lab in La Jolla so you can witness first-hand how the technology works. If you cannot travel to southern California, we will certainly provide you with our data on our upcoming human trials and peer research journals once it is available.

I look forward to corresponding with you and hopefully changing your opinion of drug signal therapy. As you will see, the data speaks for itself.

Thanks again for starting this important dialogue. I look forward to providing you with more information as we progress.


Sincerely,

John Butters, CEO

Permalink to Comment

79. sciencegirl on June 7, 2010 10:46 PM writes...

Does Mr. Butters have nothing to say about his checkered past with investors? Or his own lack of education that would allow him to understand, much less make scientific observations?

I just have to wonder if all these "experts" he is consulting (conning?) know about his background 'cause it ain't pretty.

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80. Scuseme on June 7, 2010 11:24 PM writes...

My Dear Sciencegirl - "almost undergraduate" - your opinion means "diddly poop" in the world of science. Get your Ph.D. and "prove" that any of us should listen to your rhetoric.

Nighty night.

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81. JasonP on June 7, 2010 11:34 PM writes...

"Again, I invite you to our lab in La Jolla so you can witness first-hand how the technology works."

Really? Cuz I tried that and was sent away. And now I have an FBI file...lol.

Why would any serious company give a damn what a random blog thinks anyway? Most CEOs are too busy being CEO. For a real biotech company, what is important is the data and building the product, not forum crawling.

Let me guess, these human clinical trials will be held in India right?

Permalink to Comment

82. Watson on June 7, 2010 11:55 PM writes...

Sciencegirl - regardless of whether you are actually a science girl, or a science boy - someone owes you a major apology for using the condescending and vaguely misogynist "my dear". You should continue to pursue your Ph.D. and to speak out loudly when you don't agree with people or their science. Such is the spirit of science - the Logos - and something that I think Nativis and ToBeFair would agree is the reasoning behind challenging the status quo. Be fair in your judgements, and be forgiving because we all make mistakes.

Scuseme, and everyone else (me included): consider that everyone makes mistakes in life, even Mr. Butters, but that has nothing to do with science.

Permalink to Comment

83. Soundbite on June 8, 2010 12:04 AM writes...

Derek,
Re 78. Could you attach the report from CRO Molecular Diagnostic?

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84. scuseme on June 8, 2010 12:16 AM writes...

My Dear Watson (LOL!) Couldn't help it...
your wisdom is spot on and if, in fact, sciencegirl is a "she", more power to her - the industry can use more women in science. Yet...and yet, let's do keep it about science.

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85. sciencegirl on June 8, 2010 12:19 AM writes...

What a crack up! Undergraduate biochem is more than John has studied, and the irony is - I wouldn't dream of starting a biotech company with my limited scientific background.

Another irony is, of course, that I haven't really stated any sort of scientific opinions. I have stated facts about Mr. Butters past legal issues as the caretaker of other people's money. We are not talking about one "mistake" here. We are talking about a pattern of BSing people out of their money for his own benefit. The opinions I have posted have to do with my lack of belief in the likelihood of John Butters having transformed himself from a failed land developer into a brillant biotech leader.

Let me guess, Scuseme, you are related to Mr. Butters?

And, just out of curiosity, is "diddly poop" a technical term you picked up in your Phd program?

Permalink to Comment

86. John b on June 8, 2010 1:06 AM writes...

You go, science girl. You are my hero. No one seems to want to address anything you say regarding the facts. Pretty obvious who the biotech family is here in the "community".

What a joke!

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87. whiltov on June 8, 2010 1:35 AM writes...

I have enjoyed reading this blog off and on for awhile now, but the comments here are ridiculous.

Jasonp, have you ever been to a lab before? You can't just walk into any business and demand entry. Did you try contacting them first and asking permission? My experience is that biotech companies always have security.

Sciencegirl, "Another irony is, of course, that I haven't really stated any sort of scientific opinions." Try making one. That's the point of this blog is it not?

Should we all stop believing in cutting edge science? Maybe go back to believing the earth is flat? I thought we went into this field because of the possibilities, challenging the unknown. You guys seem to have lost something along the way.


Permalink to Comment

88. Firma on June 8, 2010 2:21 AM writes...

@wiltov

I'm sure most people that have been reading this sad thread have been thinking the same thing. I sure have. I would be very surprised if many of these people are actually in the industry. A few are probably students, perhaps one or two newly arrived junior hires. But this community seems to be, generally speaking, comprised of little more than interested laymen with a thirst for blog drama.

There is a common phenomenon within the blogging community. What most liekly happened here is this... Mr Lowe, who actually IS employed, and is reasonably well informed, wrote an opinion piece from the skeptic's corner. What he wrote was a fair appraisal from his perspective based on the evidence at hand. I share his fundamental skepticism.

But... the lemmings/kids that follow his and many other blogs took his skepticism as license to play the me too! me too! game. Riling each other up in the process, the comments over the past week descended from snide skepticism into bashing, baiting, personal attacks and finally, firmly, into defamation territory.

And yes, as someone with a little understanding of the law, a few of you had better hope that this company is not legit and has little means to pursue that angle because the alternative could become very ugly for you.

Skepticism is healthy, it serves as a counter to the wayward tendencies of blind enthusiasm. What has been happening here is not skepticism, it is clearly well beyond the definition and purpose of that word.

With that, time for this old goat to move on to new topics and new threads. Have fun kids.

Permalink to Comment

89. Evorich on June 8, 2010 6:20 AM writes...

The "more than skepticism" is because we are forced to draw conclusions from the available data. The point is that I think most posters here that have slammed this "technology" are in fact employed in the chemistry/science field somewhere - since this is a medicinal chemistry blog! As someone who is employed and has worked for 15 years in pharma, government research, and academia, I just don't know how any real scientist can look at what is vaguely described about this and not think it is fake without extraordinary data to support the claims. Since there is no data, other than a rejected for "defying the laws of physics" patent application, and the proponant of the work is a non-scientist and convicted fraudster . . . well this is all we have to go on. (And people here often don't agree with Derek - see the "what it's worth" thread above.)

Non-scientists, sort of like gamblers, have a belief that you should try something just because "it might work". That is not how science works. Science is difficult. A lot of scientific experiments that we think should work due to the associated data and supporting scientific knowledge, actually fail. Science occurs incrementally to try to slowly build on successes, and reduce failure. It is not a romantic view of science, that we have somehow lost, to believe that if you propose something that seems impossible that it is definitely not going to work. This is particularly true if other people's money is paying for it (which is the sad thing here). There is an infinite difference between "difficult" and "impossible". This is not even theoretically possible.

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90. RB Woodweird on June 8, 2010 6:36 AM writes...

Firma writes: "I would be very surprised if many of these people are actually in the industry. A few are probably students, perhaps one or two newly arrived junior hires."

Actually, I would be surprised if one could not staff a small college chemistry department or mid-size biotech startup with the posters to this blog.

Permalink to Comment

91. Harry on June 8, 2010 7:01 AM writes...

Well, speaking for myself, I have 33 years experience working in the chemical industry in various capacities, the last 21 of which have been as co-owner of a custom synthesis company. I've done work for most of the major players in the pharma industry, many of which have been submerged in the mega-merger mania of the last few years.

I've seen more than enough vaporware to have a well developed bump of skepticism. Nativis is nothing more than homeopathy with a patina of technobabble.

Here's an idea. Use their wonderous "technology" to make a "photon field " recording of a narcotic antagonist. Set up an in-vivo test using morphine, such as a rat tail-flick test. Apply the"photon field" to said rats. Observe to see that the analgesic effect of the morphine has been cancelled. Quick, simple, cheap- should yield measurable results. Oh, and for controls, use a "photon field" recording of say- sucrose. That way you have a photonic placebo.

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92. partial agonist on June 8, 2010 7:52 AM writes...

Dang it Harry, you gave my business plan. Photonic morphine, photonic cocaine, photonic LSD... all legal (well, once I have their original photonic signatures). ;)

as an aside- I'm a PhD with now 26 years of lab experience, a strong proponent of the notion that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and feel that the default position of any scientist ought to be "skeptic", which is not a dirty word.

Permalink to Comment

93. Sili on June 8, 2010 9:10 AM writes...

Actually, I would be surprised if one could not staff a small college chemistry department or mid-size biotech startup with the posters to this blog.
I call dips on the janitor. Permalink to Comment

94. Evorich on June 8, 2010 9:16 AM writes...

I think the word is "dibs".

Yeah okay - you can be janitor.

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95. Hap on June 8, 2010 10:00 AM writes...

#78: Thanks for the response, but it doesn't really help - saying you have or will have something (but don't disclose it) doesn't do any good. Patents don't necessarily help, because you can patent lots of things that haven't a chance in hell of working (holy water for AIDS, for example) - if they have data, they can help, though they aren't peer-reviewed. And lots of smart people have been wrong before, so their word (w/o evidence) doesn't necessarily help, either.

When you make a claim, it's up to you and your supporters to back it up. In the absence of evidence, people aren't going to give your claim any credence. When there's evidence, people can evaluate the evidence and decide whether it's true or not (whether the evidence supports the breadth and depth of the claim), but a lack of evidence generally merits a lack of credibility. A lack of evidence doesn't mean a claim isn't true, but that people are going to treat as if it isn't true (or at least worth thinking about) until evidence shows up.

Oh, and scuseme, at least sciencegirl has done some research on the topic. Being misogynist doesn't count as an actual contribution. Perhaps you should find another coloring book (or dollar bill) to scribble on and leave the adults alone.

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96. John b on June 8, 2010 10:27 AM writes...

Re: 81. Couldn't agree more, a real CEO would read this blog once and move on, as he is more consumed with his real duties of running a company.

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97. Sili on June 8, 2010 10:45 AM writes...

I think the word is "dibs".
Thanks. Good Will Hunting I ain't. Fortis/lenis and voicing always trip me up. Permalink to Comment

98. JasonP on June 8, 2010 12:04 PM writes...

To set the record straight, I've been in the pharma industry for 8 years and I work for the top pharma company in the world in terms of wealth. Not a Phd though, as if it made a difference for this topic. Any undergraduate degree in a science field would give a person enough background to realize that this stuff is hogwash, especially in light of the sordid background of Mr. Butters.

I'm sure his sweet words of assurance are 'like budda.'

Permalink to Comment

99. DannyD on June 8, 2010 1:35 PM writes...

I must say that I am impressed with Nativis! They seem to have some pretty amazing new technologies in the pipeline (no pun intended Derek, lol).

We have come so far with medicine today—we have the capability to treat almost anything. But, as I see it, there is still a huge drawback to what we can do. And that is: side effects. Sometimes the side effects of a drug are so harsh and life-consuming that it’s almost not worth taking it in the first place. I’m sure many of us have seen relatives or friends suffer during a medical treatment.

Now, image if we were still able to treat these terrible diseases---but without the side effects! Mr. and Mrs. Butters seem to be on the right track in the ongoing advancement of medicine. And kudos to all the experts backing them up.
I can’t wait to see what comes out of their ideas! Nativis’ long list of patents (pasted below from their website), impressive advisors and promising pre-clinical studies tell me that they might be onto something.

Until more solid information comes out, I’ll be hoping for the best. Imagine how many people’s lives could be improved (and saved)!!!

Good luck in all your future endeavors, Nativis!
 
U.S. Patent Portfolio Highlights
U.S. Patent No. 6,724,188 -- Title: Apparatus and method for measuring molecular
electromagnetic signals with a squid device and stochastic resonance to measure low-threshold
signals. Issued: April 20, 2004
U.S. Patent No. 6,952,652 -- Title: System and method for sample detection based on lowfrequency
spectral components
Issued: October 4, 2005
Nativis – Technology Backgrounder
Page 3 of 4
U.S. Patent No. 6,995,558 – Title: System and method for characterizing a sample by lowfrequency
spectra. Issued: February 7, 2006
U.S. Patent No. 7,081,747 – Title: System and method for characterizing a sample by lowfrequency
spectra. Issued: July 25, 2006
U.S. Patent No. 7,412,340 – Title: System and method for sample detection based on lowfrequency
spectral components. Issued: August 12, 2008
Published U.S. Patent Applications (not issued)
U.S. Patent Application No. 20030184289 – Title: Apparatus and method for measurement of
molecular electromagnetic signals. Published: October 2, 2003
U.S. Patent Application No. 20060158183 – Title: System and method for characterizing a
sample by low-frequency spectra. Published: July 20, 2006
U.S. Patent Application No. 20070210790 – Title: System and Method for Characterizing a
Sample by Low-Frequency Spectra. Published: September 13, 2007
U.S. Patent Application No. 20070231872 – Title: System and Method for Collecting, Storing,
Processing, Transmitting and Presenting Very Low Amplitude Signals. Published: July 20, 2006
U.S. Patent Application No. 20090156659 – Title: System and Method for Collecting, Storing,
Processing, Transmitting and Presenting very low Amplitude Signals. Published: June 18, 2009
Foreign Patent Portfolio Highlights
Canada
Canada Patent No. 2460794 – Title: System and method for sample detection based on lowfrequency
spectral components. Filed: April 18, 2003. Issued: February 8, 2005
Australia
Australia Patent No. 2003230950 – Title: System and method for sample detection based on lowfrequency
spectral components Filed: April 18, 2003 Issued: February 22, 2007
Australia Patent No. 2003231978 – Title: System and method for characterizing a sample by
low-frequency spectra. Filed: March 28, 2003. Issued: June 2, 2005 Revised 2/22/2010
Australia Patent No. 2004280998 – Title: System and method for characterizing a sample by
low-frequency spectra Filed: October 8, 2004. Issued: July 24, 2008
Japan
Japan Patent No. 4425639 – Title: System and method for characterizing a sample by lowfrequency
spectra Filed: March 28, 2003. Issued: December 18, 2009
Nativis – Technology Backgrounder
Page 4 of 4
Japan Patent No. 4425922 – Title: System and method for characterizing a sample by lowfrequency
spectra Filed: October 8, 2004. Issued: December 18, 2009
India
India Patent No. 2298993 – Title: An apparatus and method for interrogating a sample that
exhibits molecular rotation Filed: March 28, 2003. Issued: February 24, 2009

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100. Hap on June 8, 2010 1:59 PM writes...

All those patents seem to be about detection of "molecular signals" and not about their actual use, and the use is what Nativis is claiming (or at least, to be trying) to make. That's a really big leap to make.

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101. Vegamatic Photon Field on June 8, 2010 1:59 PM writes...

Nirvana is just around the corner. We are about to enter a world where we use only hydrogen for fuel, where people never get sick and die, and everyone respects everyone else. The planet will be returned to it's former beauty and all the extinct species will come back to life so that the Tyrannosaur will lay down with the Duckbill.
We will turn all our nuclear weapons into iPod's and the World will know darkness no more.

It's all yours for only three easy payments of $19.95. Act now and you will get a Shreddo Cheese grater as a free gift. The next 20 callers get free shipping.

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102. NativisUberAlles on June 8, 2010 2:06 PM writes...

JOIN US IN THE GLORIOUS REUNIFICATION OF PHOTON, MEDICINE, BIOPHYSICAL BIPOLAR FEEDBACK AND PATENT PROTECTED, MULTICOIL ALLIVATION OF ILLNESS ACROSS THE WORLD. TODAY BEGINS A BRAVE NEW WORLD IN HOLISTIC GREEN BIOREMEDIATION OF BODY AND MIND WITH THE POWER OF THE PHOTON. JOIN US AS THE POWER OF THE PHOTON UNITES THE WHOLE WORLD.

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103. Excited on June 8, 2010 2:48 PM writes...

Have any of you read through the information on their website? This is a remarkable little company!
 
Not only are they taking huge steps to improve the way medicine is used today. But they are also committed to reducing the waste that is commonplace in the pharmaceutical industry.
 
According to Roger Sheldon’s Green Chemistry, its takes pharmaceutical companies approx. 100 grams of material to produce one gram of API (active pharmaceutical ingredient). Nativis’ drug therapy technology plans to reduce waste because its technology doesn’t necessitate raw materials, chemical agents or solvents and they also intend to use smaller, cleaner plants for manufacturing the drug signals.
Seems like some pretty forward-thinking stuff.

I look forward to hearing good news about their upcoming trials and peer-review!
 

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104. john b on June 8, 2010 2:56 PM writes...

... another nice little post from Mrs. Butters!

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105. Captain Kirk on June 8, 2010 3:28 PM writes...

You know, on the Enterprise we had something exactly like Nativis is talking about here. We called it "The Holodeck."

Frankly, having sex with a real woman is much better than her "Photon Field" counterpart. But when you're in a hurry and the Borg are attacking, a little virtual nookie works wonders. Besides, "Photon Fields" aren't into cuddling, which is a plus.

Yeah, I know. "The Holodeck" was Next Generation, but that time-travel trick let me take full advantage. Oh yeah.....

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106. Evorich on June 8, 2010 4:31 PM writes...

@Excited - stop it, just stop it!! This is horrible!!

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107. the photonic field of Derek on June 8, 2010 4:53 PM writes...

I think I'll take the day off and let my photonic signature fill in. In fact, I should have thought of this 8 hours ago. Maybe my photonic signature can attend all project team meetings from here on out...

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108. DannyD on June 8, 2010 5:03 PM writes...

@Excited

I appreciate your enthusiasm. I will also be looking forward to seeing some real results!

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109. Derek Lowe on June 8, 2010 7:09 PM writes...

DannyD, since you and Excited are posting from the same internet provider at the same IP address, you should be able to get together and chat about this without too much trouble.

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110. Captain Kirk on June 8, 2010 9:01 PM writes...

I was in this episode called "Mirror Mirror" where everybody on the Enterprise had an evil twin. I wonder if you can have an "Anti-Photonic Field." What would happen if Anti-Photonic matter interacted with Photonic matter. Wow! Maybe we have solved the energy crisis!

But wait, I date myself with that term. Maybe photon-anti-photon energy would be "carbon-neutral." I'm just saying...

Brought to you by Priceline.com

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111. JasonP on June 8, 2010 9:26 PM writes...

"DannyD, since you and Excited are posting from the same internet provider at the same IP address, you should be able to get together and chat about this without too much trouble."


Hahah...wow. So either this person is an impostor having fun, or someone associated with this scam, and have provided us with all the proof we need of illegitimacy.

Sorry Butters et al, you choose the wrong field to screw with. We're just too willing to look at the fine details because, you know, that's our job on a daily basis. You'd be better off in real estate.

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112. MTK on June 8, 2010 9:55 PM writes...

Danny D/Excited may need some photonic Zyprexa.

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113. sciencegirl on June 8, 2010 10:50 PM writes...

I was wondering if discussion of Butters and Co. was limited to this little thread. Lots of snickering on Twitter, too. (Though Queen Elizabeth, Vegamatic Photon Field and Captain Kirk have managed to expand the snickering to guffaws! Thanks for the chuckles.

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114. commonsense on June 10, 2010 2:51 PM writes...

I am only in high school, and the idea that someone without a college degree in the field and his wife in a sales job could start up a company and claim to be "experts" about the medical field seems absolutely ridiculous even to me. And the fact that he has a record of scamming people? I mean, come on. How much more obvious does it have to get that this whole thing is complete and total trash?

Also, to the "people" (person, really) with the same IP address:
1. Get a life. We live in America, and we have the right to free speech. We can say whatever we want about your fraudulent little indiscretions. We have the right to speak the truth. Everyone should know about this.
2. Are you really so desperate (just like BP) that your company name will be sullied just because Derek's readers are making legitimate inquiries into your activities? Because that is absolutely pathetic. Go back to sitting in your silly little cubicle. Keep that fraud running. I laughed reading your sad attempts to oh-so-subtly manipulate the conversation in your favor. Such a mastermind. What are you planning to do next, ask Bernie Madoff to put out a statement for you saying that he invested in your "work"?
3. It's sad that you're still employed while millions of deserving Americans are jobless. Do you feel no compassion for these people? Because conning other people out of their hard-earned money is really not a nice thing to do. How low can you go? Even a kindergartener could tell you that it's mean to steal. You, whatever kind of heartless creature you are, deserve to be in jail. I hope you reach your final destination soon. :)

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