Corante

About this Author
Derek Lowe
Derek Lowe, an Arkansan by birth, got his BA from Hendrix College and his PhD in organic chemistry from Duke before spending time in Germany on a Humboldt Fellowship on his post-doc. He's worked for several major pharmaceutical companies since 1989 on drug discovery projects against schizophrenia, Alzheimer's, diabetes, osteoporosis and other diseases. To contact Derek email him directly: derekb.lowe@gmail.com Twitter: Dereklowe

Chemistry and Drug Data: Drugbank
Emolecules
ChemSpider
Chempedia Lab
Synthetic Pages
Organic Chemistry Portal
PubChem
Not Voodoo
DailyMed
Druglib
Clinicaltrials.gov

Chemistry and Pharma Blogs:
Org Prep Daily
The Haystack
MedChem Buzz
Kilomentor
On Pharma
A New Merck, Reviewed
Liberal Arts Chemistry
One in Ten Thousand
Electron Pusher
Periodic Tabloid
All Things Metathesis
C&E News Blog
Propter Doc
Chemiotics II
The Chemical Notebook
Chemical Space
Noel O'Blog
In Vivo Blog
Terra Sigilatta
Chirality
BBSRC/Douglas Kell
ChemBark
Drug Discovery Opinion
Realizations in Biostatistics
Chemjobber
Pharmalot
WSJ Health Blog
ChemSpider Blog
Pharmagossip
Med-Chemist
Organic Chem - Education & Industry
Useful Chemistry
Chiral Jones
Pharma Strategy Blog
No Name No Slogan
Practical Fragments
SimBioSys
The Curious Wavefunction
Natural Product Man
Totally Synthetic
Fragment Literature
The F- Blog
Chemistry World Blog
Synthetic Nature
Chemistry Blog
Synthesizing Ideas
Carbon-Based Curiosities
Experimental Error
Business|Bytes|Genes|Molecules
Eye on FDA
Sigma-Aldrich ChemBlogs
Chemical Forums
Depth-First
Symyx Blog
P212121
ChemCafe
Sceptical Chymist
Lamentations on Chemistry
Computational Organic Chemistry
Mining Drugs
Henry Rzepa


Science Blogs and News:
Bad Science
The Loom
Uncertain Principles
Fierce Biotech
Blogs for Industry
Omics! Omics!
Young Female Scientist
Notional Slurry
Nobel Intent
SciTech Daily
Science Blog
FuturePundit
Aetiology
Gene Expression (I)
Gene Expression (II)
Sciencebase
Pharyngula
Adventures in Ethics and Science
Transterrestrial Musings
Slashdot Science
A Scientist's Life
Speculist
Cosmic Variance
The Capsule
Zeroth Order Approximation
Biology News Net


Medical Blogs
Med Tech Sentinel
DB's Medical Rants
Science-Based Medicine
GruntDoc
The Health Care Blog
Respectful Insolence
Black Triangle
Diabetes Mine


Economics and Business
Marginal Revolution
Arnold Kling
The Volokh Conspiracy
Knowledge Problem
The Stalwart


Politics / Current Events
Virginia Postrel
Tinkerty Tonk
Instapundit
Megan McArdle
Mickey Kaus
Colby Cosh
Alien Corn
No Watermelons


Belles Lettres
Two Blowhards
Critical Mass
Arts and Letters Daily
God of the Machine
Armavirumque
About Last Night
In the Pipeline: Don't miss Derek Lowe's excellent commentary on drug discovery and the pharma industry in general at In the Pipeline

In the Pipeline

« ASCO Fever | Main | Days of Silicon and Roses »

May 16, 2005

Cuprate Voodoo

Email This Entry

Posted by Derek

I may talk a good game, but don't let me fool you: I really don't understand some of the things that happen in my lab. I was talking with some colleagues the other day, and told them about a reaction I had in my PhD work. I was using a so-called "higher-order cuprate" reagent, which you make from copper cyanide and lithium reagents, and it worked just fine for me the first time out.

And then it worked just fine again, on a larger scale, and then it worked just fine one more time. And at that point, it stopped working, forever. I never got the tiniest bit of product out of the reaction again, only starting material and varioius forms of junk. It was as if someone had turned a switch.

We're supposed to be able to work these problems out, and I tried. I checked my solvents, my starting materials, and my technique. I analyzed my lithium reagents, and I tried every bottle of copper cyanide we had. Then I made my own, the most beautiful copper cyanide you'd ever want, assuming that you'd ever want some. Result, zilch. I reversed field, thinking that I'd used an old bottle which might have some oxidation products in it that made things work. But aging the stuff by heating it in an open flask didn't help, either. Nothing did. I kept looking at my flask of product from before, a key intermediate in my synthesis, and wondering how on Earth I'd ever made it.

Well, as I finally wrote in my dissertations, "cuprate reagents of all sorts were abandoned after this experience." I never did find out what happened, and eventually worked out another way to get the product (which reminds me, if anyone out there needs to use dimethylmagnesium, talk to me - have I got a recipe for you!) Organometallic reagents are famous for being tricky, but you'd think that a science as old as organic chemistry - we are a science, right? - would be able to deal with such problems. Maybe not.

(Note: the structure and reactivity of all kinds of cuprate reagents have been the subject of food fights for many years. Here's a sample, but if you're not seriously into organometallic chemistry you're going to feel as if you'd stepped into a room full of people discussing Zoroastrian theology. A later and less contentious look at the field can be found here as a PDF.)

Comments (4) + TrackBacks (0) | Category: Life in the Drug Labs


COMMENTS

1. Greg Hlatky on May 16, 2005 10:20 PM writes...

We Zoroastrians prefer to keep to ourselves.

Permalink to Comment

2. Jose on May 17, 2005 11:39 AM writes...

Aha! Did you consider the septa factor? Somewhere in the older cuprate lit there is a footnote saying that some of the "HO" jobbies don't go if you use the std off-white septa, and the reddish-orange kind are crucial for success... I'll see if I can dig a reference out....

Permalink to Comment

3. PsychicChemist on May 17, 2005 10:21 PM writes...

I made many cuprates at one point of time and all of them worked!

What I found was that cuprates generally do not form very well at -78C. You need to warm the reaction to -40C or so to get the cuprate to form. (This is important as one can imagine what could happen to your molecule if you didnt form the cuprate and you had a lot of very basic organolithium floating in your reaction). Although, you dont want to warm the reaction up too much as some cuprates can decompose at higher temperatures.

What I found that worked the best was to add the organolithium at -78C and warm the reaction in my hand (it can be fairly unpleasant with a larger colder flask) till I could see the copper salt dissolve in the THF. Then I would stick the flask back into the dry ice/acetone bath. Of course I couldnt write this description in the experimental when I published the paper, I just said warm to -40C

My question was, why did you use CuCN and not just a simple Gilman cuprate with CuI. I found them to be a lot more reliable. And if you still cant get a good reaction, add some TMSCl. That works like magic.

So Derek, are you going to try the reaction from grad school again..........

Permalink to Comment

4. Derek Lowe on May 18, 2005 8:56 AM writes...

Hah! I'd have to be paid very handsomely to revisit anything from graduate school. We actually did try the good ol' Gilman cuprates on this system, and they didn't work very well. The cyanocuprate, whatever it is, was a great improvement (for a week or so. . .) But dimethylmagnesium proved to be the high-yielding, 50-grams-at-a-time answer to this problem.

Permalink to Comment


EMAIL THIS ENTRY TO A FRIEND

Email this entry to:

Your email address:

Message (optional):




RELATED ENTRIES
Academia and Industry, Suing Each Other
Let's Start Off the Meeting With An Ad, OK?
The Academic-Industrial Collaboration in Drug Discovery Panel: Today
Glass Structure, Atom by Atom
How the Andrulis Paper Got Published
AstraZeneca in Waltham
Fluorine NMR: Why Not?
AstraZeneca Layoffs and Closings